Talk:Ioveta

Ioveta is currently a Royalty, nobility and heraldry good article nominee. Nominated by Surtsicna (talk) at 06:32, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

An editor has placed this article on hold to allow improvements to be made to satisfy the good article criteria. Recommendations have been left on the review page, and editors have seven days to address these issues. Improvements made in this period will influence the reviewer's decision whether or not to list the article as a good article.

Short description: Latin princess and abbess of Bethany (c. 1120 – 1178)

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A fact from Ioveta appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 27 December 2023 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that the Latin princess Ioveta was about four years old when her mother, Queen Morphia, surrendered her to the Turks as debt payment security?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2023/December. The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Ioveta.

Wikipedia

Name

I always hate these single-named articles about medieval people...everybody's got to be "of" somewhere, I think. Probably not going to win that argument though. Nevertheless, Runciman does call her "Joveta of Bethany" on one occasion (probably where I got the name from, although I changed it to Ioveta). Runciman's index lists her as "Joveta (Yvette) of Jerusalem". Latin and Greek Monasticism in the Crusader States by Bernard Hamilton and Andrew Jotischky has "Yveta, Abbess of Bethany". Her name is also spelled various other ways (Yvetta, Juditta). The recent article by Erin Jordan calls her "Iveta of Jerusalem." Adam Bishop (talk) 17:45, 3 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by AirshipJungleman29 talk 02:40, 21 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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Comment or view
Article history

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... that the Latin princess Ioveta was about four years old when her mother, Queen Morphia, surrendered her to the Turks as debt payment security? Source: "... and hostages were to be deposited at Shaizar for the payment of the remainder ... For hostages Timurtash demanded the King's youngest child, the four-year old Princess Joveta ..." (Runciman, p. 171)
- Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Henriette Ith
- Comment: I would appreciate it if this hook could be promoted alongside the (soon to be created) Convent of Saint Lazarus hook. I opted against a double hook because I liked the hook nominated here as well.

5x expanded by Surtsicna (talk). Self-nominated at 16:32, 12 November 2023 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Ioveta; consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.[reply]

Perhaps it would be better to specify who the debt was owed to rather than using the generic "the Turks". Something like:

ALT1: ... that the Latin princess Ioveta was about four years old when her mother, Queen Morphia, surrendered her to Timurtash, the ruler of Aleppo, as collateral for a debt payment?

Other than that everything checks out (one source says "four or five" years old, but I think "about four years old" covers that).

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Ioveta/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Nominator: Surtsicna (talk · contribs) 06:32, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Reviewer: Alanna the Brave (talk · contribs) 15:22, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'll take on this review. Comments to come over the next few days! Alanna the Brave (talk) 15:22, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Good Article review progress box

Criteria: 1a. prose () 1b. MoS () 2a. ref layout () 2b. cites WP:RS () 2c. no WP:OR () 2d. no WP:CV ()

3a. broadness () 3b. focus () 4. neutral () 5. stable () 6a. free or tagged images () 6b. pics relevant ()

Note: this represents where the article stands relative to the Good Article criteria. Criteria marked are unassessed

Alrighty -- here we go! The writing quality looks excellent, and the article is stable and neutral. The images are all relevant, interesting, and tagged. The article is pretty broad and comprehensive, but I'm seeing a few areas in the article that could use clarification or better source-to-text/citation accuracy, so that's where I'll focus my comments and suggestions below. Alanna the Brave (talk) 23:33, 27 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Clarity & comprehensiveness

Is there a source for Ioveta's year of birth? That should be mentioned and cited in the article main text.

Admittedly, "c. 1120" is a remnant of the pre-expansion version. It matches Hamilton's approximation (he says "only about eighteen in 1138"). Jordan calls her six when discussing her becoming a hostage in 1124 but Runciman says she was four. But then even Jordan says that she was born in Jerusalem, and her mother only moved to Jerusalem in 1119. I think the best we can do is mention her approximate age at certain turning points, such as her captivity and the construction of Bethany. Then "c. 1120" can stay in the lead per WP:2+2=4. Surtsicna (talk) 21:39, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Nevertheless, for a child of four or five, this experience was likely traumatizing." --> This feels like plain speculation (however sensible). I suggest clearly attributing to a specific source, or cutting it entirely (not sure it adds much to the text).

I think it makes for a more engaging writing, and more importantly it provides an opportunity to subtly mention her age in the first section. I have attributed it to Barber. Surtsicna (talk) 21:39, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"As abbess, Ioveta enjoyed more independence than her married sisters; although a queen, princess, and countess respectively, Melisende, Alice, and Hodierna were constrained by their father, husbands, and sons" --> Constrained in what way? I think I get the gist, but this could use a few more words of detail.

Few more words added.[1] Surtsicna (talk) 22:32, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"That same year, Patriarch Fulk died." --> Who was Patriarch Fulk, and why did his death matter so much? Readers new to the subject may need a brief explanation.

I do not know what to do about this. Patriarch Fulk (now renamed Fulcher, apparently more common) was... the patriarch. The office is mentioned in full and linked in the preceding section. His death mattered because it allowed the royal women to select a new patriarch. Surtsicna (talk) 22:32, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's fair. I don't have a lot of background in Latin/Catholic religious structures, so it left me with some questions, but I think the wiki-links are adequate to help readers find more information if they need it. --A.

"Historian Hans Eberhard Mayer believes that Ioveta resented Melisende for committing her to a monastery life, citing Ioveta's failure to request prayers for Melisende from the nuns at Fontevraud, an argument rejected by historian Erin Jordan." --> Why has Jordan rejected that argument?

Expanded.[2] I can only speculate that the evidence she means is Ioveta nursing Melisende and Melisende making Ioveta rich and influential. Surtsicna (talk) 22:32, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"King Amalric was forced to separate from his wife, Agnes of Courtenay, who soon remarried..." --> Why was Amalric forced to separate from his wife?

This... no one actually knows for sure. I included it to show how Sibylla lost a mother figure before being sent to Ioveta but I suppose it does not need to be mentioned. I would rather cut the divorce than present off-topic speculation. Surtsicna (talk) 22:32, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"...shortly after he sent their daughter, Sibylla, to Bethany to be brought up by Ioveta" --> There are lots of names to keep track of in this article, and we've just seen another Sibylla, so you may want to clearly differentiate the two women by calling this one "Sibylla of Jerusalem" on her first introduction.

I think defining people through familial relationships (Melisende's stepdaughter Sibylla vs Amalric's daughter Sibylla) is sufficient. They are all, in one way or another, "of Jerusalem". I can add a custom-made genealogical table after Runciman's if that would help. Surtsicna (talk) 22:32, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That could be an interesting addition -- but not strictly necessary for the GA review (I'll leave it up to you as a future option!). --A.

Spot checks / Accuracy

"Ioveta and the other children were turned over to Sultan Shah ibn Radwan in mid-1124 at Shaizar. There they met with King Baldwin, who was then released." --> Citation should be pp. 171-172, not 172.

Fixed. Surtsicna (talk) 23:16, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"[Melisende] was married to Fulk of Anjou in 1129." --> The Runciman citation should be p. 178, not 179.

Fixed. Surtsicna (talk) 23:16, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"The queen and her husband, King Fulk, persuaded the Latin patriarch of Jerusalem and canons of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre to cede a church and land at Bethany, near Jerusalem, in 1138." --> Citation should be p. 158 of source, not 157.

Fixed. Surtsicna (talk) 23:16, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Reflecting Melisende's view of Ioveta's standing, Ioveta's abbey accepted exclusively noblewomen, but since there were few such candidates in the Latin East, pilgrims from Europe often supplemented their numbers. The most famous of these was Melisende's stepdaughter Countess Sibylla of Flanders, who arrived in 1157." --> Citation should be p. 160 of source, not 158.

Fixed. Surtsicna (talk) 23:16, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Melisende lavishly endowed Bethany with estates, gold, silver, precious stones, and silk, making it wealthier than any other monastery or church in the kingdom" --> Citation should be pp. 158-160 of source, not 158.

Fixed. Surtsicna (talk) 23:16, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Because Ioveta was only about 18 in 1138, Melisende appointed an elderly abbess..." --> Source just says that Melisende founded a convent at Bethany so that Ioveta could become an abbess (no mention of Ioveta's age or an elderly abbess).

Do footnotes not count? Surtsicna (talk) 23:16, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

They do indeed! I just totally missed that footnote (small font, tired eyes). --A.

"Melisende appointed an elderly abbess, Matilda..." --> Citation should be p. 160 of source, not 158.

Fixed. The number of these is embarrassing. Surtsicna (talk) 23:16, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Melisende reigned jointly with her son, Baldwin III, from Fulk's death in 1143 until Baldwin deposed her in 1153." --> Cited page doesn't mention clear years/dates for Melisende's reign and deposition.

Changed to 1152 (our article on Melisende is wrong and so are many of the sources I see on Google Books) and 151-152. Surtsicna (talk) 23:16, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"In late 1160 or early 1161, Queen Melisende fell ill, likely having had a stroke. She suffered memory loss and was no longer able to participate in the administration of the kingdom. Hodierna and Ioveta nursed her for several months until she died on 11 September 1161." --> "nursed her for several months" could be better paraphrased.

Done. Surtsicna (talk) 23:16, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Photo tips (extra stuff)

While not strictly required for GA status, it's good practice to add alt text to all images for accessibility purposes. I'd suggest aiming for a concise 1-2 sentence description for each image.
While it's pretty clear the images of King Baldwin and King Fulk/Queen Melisende are out of copyright, the origin descriptions and licensing coding are quite messy and would benefit from a cleanup in future.

I wasn't able to access the Jordan (2017) and Hamilton & Jotischky (2020) sources to do a spot-check of them -- would you be able to share the relevant pages with me if I contact you by email? Let me know when you're ready for me to take another look at everything. Best, Alanna the Brave (talk) 23:33, 27 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You can access Jordan (2017) for free via jstor. You may also contact me via email. Surtsicna (talk) 23:19, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Surtsicna: Thanks for all your patience (and for sending me that source!). I'm finally circling back for a last review of your updates and the Jordan and Hamilton & Jotischky sources. You've cleared up the earlier questions I had about the article text, and there are only a handful of extra sourcing/citation queries that I'll list below. Alanna the Brave (talk) 18:22, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Spot-check of remaining sources

"Both the County of Edessa and the Kingdom of Jerusalem were crusader states, carved out among Muslim-ruled principalities of the Levant by Catholic noblemen from Western Europe." --> I'm not seeing this clearly discussed on the cited p. 69.
"Joscelin, the son of Count Joscelin I of Edessa, who had succeeded Baldwin as ruler of the northern-most crusader state, was among the children who accompanied Ioveta, but nothing is known about the rest." --> Citation should be pp. 70-71, if the footnote is what you're referencing.
"In any case, this was a common path for the younger children of royal and noble parents" --> Citation should be pp. 76 & 77.
"Baldwin IV became king upon Amalric's death in 1174, but because he had leprosy, Sibylla was expected to succeed him." --> No mention of leprosy in the cited p. 233.