Talk:Production car speed record

Notes for editors

• Discussion and determination on the 20 car limit
• The most recent review of the 20 car limit

Cars excluded from the list together with basic reason

Make and model	Year	Claimed top speed	Number built	Reason
Alfa Romeo 6C 2500 Super Sport	1946–1951	106 mph (171 km/h)	Unknown	No road test
Allard J1 and K1	1946–1948	92 mph (148 km/h) to 93 mph (150 km/h) with one source claiming over 100 mph (161 km/h)	151 K1's	No road test
Aston Martin DB4 GT Zagato	1960	153.5 mph (247 km/h)	19	excluded because of number built
Barabus TKR	2006	270.0 mph (435 km/h)	unknown	crashed on record attempt – no record set
Bugatti Chiron	2017	275 mph (443 km/h)	70 (500 planned)	excluded because of no road test (260 mph) and removal of speed limiter (275 mph)
Bugatti Veyron 16.4 World Record Edition	2010	267.557 mph (431 km/h)	5	excluded because of number built – see discussion on this articles talk page. Out of the initial production run of 30 there were 5, named the Super Sport World Record Edition, which had the electronic limiter turned off, and were capable of 267.857 mph (431.074 km/h), although Guinness World Records later re-verified the official land speed record.
Dauer 962 Le Mans	1994	251.4 mph (404.6 km/h)	≥10	not enough built
Delahaye 135	1946–1954	100 mph (161 km/h)	unknown	no road test, numbers unknown, coachbuilt
Ferrari 340 and 375 America, 410 and 400 Superamerica	1950–1959	149–165 mph (240–265 km/h)	23, 12, 35, 47	less than 20 made for 375 America and most 340 Americas were racing cars
Ferrari 250 GTO	1962–1964	174 mph (280 km/h)	36	no independent road test and each car tends to be customised, race car
Ferrari 500 Superfast	1964–1966	174 mph (280 km/h)	36	excluded because of no independent road test
Hennessey Venom GT	2010	265.7 mph (428 km/h)(2013) 270.49 mph (435 km/h)(2014)	16	excluded because of number built and single direction top speed test run
Hennessey Venom F5	2016	290 mph (467 km/h) proposed	30 to be built	unconfirmed numbers and no road test
Koenigsegg Agera (models R and One:1)	2011–2014	273 mph (439 km/h) to 280 mph (451 km/h) depending on model	less than 20 for any model	excluded because of numbers built and/or unverified top speed
Koenigsegg CCR	2004	242 mph (389 km/h)	14	excluded because of numbers built
Lamborghini Countach 5000QV	1985	185 mph (298 km/h)		speed record already higher
Lamborghini Muira P400S	1969	172 mph (277 km/h)	338	this model was introduced after the Ferrari Daytona
Maserati 5000 GT	1959–1965	172.4 mph (277 km/h) claimed – more an estimate than a true measure	34 but with different bodies	no independent test
Monteverdi Hai 450	1970	180 mph (290 km/h) claimed	only 2 proto-types built, the SS and GTS	no production version
Ruf CTR2	1995	217 mph (350 km/h)	31	16 of the 31 CTR2s were normal, while 15 were CTR2 "Sport". Top speed test missing.
Pegaso Z-102 BS 2.8 Supercharged	1953	151 mph (243 km/h)	>20	less than 20 built
Shelby SuperCars SSC (all models including TT, Ultimate Aero, and Tuatara's)	2004–2014	236 mph (380 km/h)to 276 mph (444 km/h) depending on model	less than 20 for each model	excluded because of numbers built
Studebaker Avanti R2	1962–1963	158 mph (254 km/h)	unknown for version tested	data on speed tests and configuration of the car tested unknown at this stage
Studebaker Avanti R3	1962–1963	171.1 mph (275 km/h)	6	insufficient made
Talbot Lago T26 Record and Grand Sport	1946–1954	105 mph (169 km/h) (Record) and 124 mph (200 km/h) (Grand Sport)	less than 20 for either model	excluded because of numbers built and lack of independent road test
Vector W8	1990–1993	242 mph (389 km/h) for prototype	17 production models	excluded because of number built and no verified top speed for production model

Many of these cars have been debated on this articles talk pages. Should more detailed reasoning be required refer to the relevant discussion or raise the issue on the talk page.

Mclaren F1 vs Dauer 962LM

The fact that the Dauer 962 is on the list does not exclude the Mclaren F1, as the Mclaren's 355 kph record was broken much earlier. Eduardo César Schmidt (talk) 18:14, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

At Mclaren F1 it says the 355 km/h speed in 1994 was by the magazine Car and Driver. The reference link is no longer valid, so I cannot verify any details. Specifically, was it in road trim (eg no special tyres, no modifications, no removal of weight), was it an averaged 2-way run, and was it recorded by an official body.  Stepho  talk  23:18, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

So it should be on the list. Eduardo César Schmidt (talk) 21:31, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

Not without references from reliable sources. See WP:FACT and WP:RS. We need supporting references for the speed and also that it was an unmodified car (stock tyres, no weight removal, etc), was it a 2-way run, was it recorded by an official body (not by the manufacturer), etc.  Stepho  talk  21:44, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

What about F1’s two-way run in March 1998? The Element 911 (talk) 19:07, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

Do you mean Andy Wallace's run in the XP5 prototype? Prototypes are not production cars unless you have a reference that it is substantially the same as the production version. There is the usual grey area about what changes are permissible - eg changing body colour and interior trim is fine but changes to shape, weight, engine, gearing, tyres, suspension, etc are not.  Stepho  talk  01:47, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

Take a look at Talk:Production car speed record/Archive 7#McLaren F1. The test car was a prototype and not the production car. NealeWellington (talk) 04:58, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

Dauer 962 Le Mans: does it still deserve to be in the list?

The 962LM has been a large topic of discussion for this page for some time, and so I wan't to question again whether it still deserves to be in the list, and I have a few reasons on why it shouldn't.

First of all, if we take into account the "notes for editors" topic, it should've been already excluded, for having "not enough built". Out of the 13 cars allegedly produced (a claim mentioned in multiple articles), we can confirm the existence of most of them: 1 is the original prototype displayed at the 1993 Frankfurt Auto Show, 5 road cars were built for the Sultan of Brunei, 1 is the homologation special "GT-style", 3 are the race cars built for the 1994 24 hours of Le Mans and 1 more was built and sold in 2001. If we assume that the first prototype was the car to claim the record, then only 6 out of the 11 cars mentioned could be on the same spec as the one that hit 404,6 km/h; the final model built had a different gearbox, the GT-style 962 features significant changes on the bodywork and the 3 race cars aren't road legal. So that leaves us with only 6 cars that could have the same specifications of the possible record beating car, so does a car with these few made still qualify as a "production car"? Moreover, we are not sure if the 5 cars delivered to Brunei have the same drivetrains as the first one.

The record run is also heavily undocumented, with little to back it up, other than AUTO BILD's and EVO Magazine's articles and Dauer themselves. We don't know who did it, what car was used, if the car was modified, if they were following the criteria used for the rest of this list; hell, we don't even know if it even happened.

I'm really feel like it doesn't deserve to be here, but I don't think it is fair that I just outright remove it based purely on my opinion. Arambojubr (talk) 07:12, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Yeah. I was wavering a bit on that too. Thanks for the new reference https://dempseymotorsports.com/1993-dauer-962-le-mans-prototype-road-car/ that provides many more details.

From what I can gather, it is a fully road legal car with it's own VIN (TP9962...), so it obeys all the rules for our list. We removed the quantity made requirement a few years ago, so it should be fine to keep it.  Stepho  talk  08:55, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

With that in mind, it makes more sense, but I still stand by my argument. We don't know the specs of the 5 cars owned by the Sultan of Brunei and the details of the record run. The fact that so little is publicly known about this car makes it a challenge to tell anything about it. I'm also a bit mixed with the lack of a requirement of minimum units produced, but since this has been decided such a long time ago, I won't argue. Arambojubr (talk) 12:12, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

This article is terribly written

Unfortunately, the edit pointing out that the article doesn't have an encyclopedic tone, a neutral point of view, and appears to consist of original research was removed by some 'editor' who apparently thinks that an encyclopedia article would say junk like "Because of the inconsistencies with the various definitions of production cars, dubious claims by manufacturers and self-interest groups, and inconsistent or changing application of the definitions this list has a defined set of requirements."

Because when writing an encyclopedia statements like that are acceptable. 174.16.142.213 (talk) 06:41, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

Ok, I'll bite.

• What is the definition of a production car? Is it a car that is road legal in the US? There are cars that are road legal in Germany that are not road legal in California. There are cars that are road legal in small African countries that are not road legal in any Western country - if you pay the correct under the counter "fee". Does a run of 10 cars count? How about 3? How about a one-off special? Tuner cars? Go through the talk page archives to see the amount of time we put into that definition to make it as fair as possible.
• It is in manufacturer's interest to claim outrageous top speeds. It sells cars and any fine is typically lower than the profit from increased sales.
• There is no central repository of officially clocked top speeds made under controlled and consistent conditions (temperature, barometric pressure, etc affect engine power and tyre grip). Even the Guinness Book of Records requires a fee to keep an entry valid. We do the best we can from fully referenced top speeds that are at least interdependently recorded/reported with 2-way runs that meet our definition of a production car.

Given the above, what alternative do you suggest?  Stepho  talk  08:17, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

In fact, I agree with you that the issue is fraught. But the issue being fraught didn't justify original research, the non-encyclopedic tone, and the drift away from a neutral point of view.

If you are arguing there is no other alternative way to have the article exist, then a deletion would be in order.

I am saying the article has issues and needs attention and am going to restore the template - if people want to give it a try, go ahead. 174.16.142.213 (talk) 13:19, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

I'm not agreeing with you - I'm just laying out the facts so that we are talking about the same thing.

FYI, encyclopedic tone just means that we use formal English and not the informal type used in forums - totes fam LOL !

Where are we non-neutral? We strive very hard to be neutral while also weeding out the tuner (ie modified, non-production) cars that try to claim various production car records.

There is no universal definition of production car. So we clarify a middle of the road example and use that. We also make sure that the reader knows this - all above board.

Deleting the article is just plain silly. The typical reader knows that such things as production car speed records exists - the magazines and newspapers claim them often. The only tricky bit is keeping them honest when they sometimes claim a record for a one-off, highly modified car that just happens to look like a car that you can buy. Hence our definition.

Once again I ask - how would you change it?

Are there any specific cars that you think should be here that our definition unfairly ruled out?  Stepho  talk  14:19, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

SSC Tuatara excluded from the list

The information that SSC Tuatara is not homologated for the roads lacks sources. Therefore, since there are no sources of this information and knowing that the Tuatara reached an average of 455 km/h in two directions, confirmed by VBOX and with audit, it should be considered the fastest production car to date. Eduardo César Schmidt (talk) 16:41, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

SSC gained a reputation for being, um, "flexible" with the truth for their record attempt and their reporting of the first "sale" (the vehicle remained at the factory long after it was reported as sold). It is hard to trust anything coming from their PR department.  Stepho  talk  23:19, 29 November 2024 (UTC)