Talk:Fairy

New section drafted on "Christian belief in fairies"

I've drafted a section on several modern Christian theologians and philosophers who have written about the reality of fairies: David Bentley Hart, John Milbank, Stephen R. L. Clark, C. S. Lewis, and J. R. R. Tolkien. This content, if others agree that it is relevant to the article, might be better integrated into the rest of the outline, but I did not see an obvious location for it. Feedback and suggestions much appreciated. Jjhake (talk) 03:43, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

I'm quite familiar with "On Fairy-Stories", and it absolutely does not affirm any belief in fairies as a real thing. It's about the literary device of "fairy-stories", and how it applies to our psychology. The quote by C.S. Lewis paraphrasing a comment Tolkien once made to him is similarly presented as a literal belief in fairies, when Tolkien is clearly speaking in a philosophical sense. The section as a whole seems to be ascribing a generalised trend in Christianity to the individual beliefs of a few philosophers, and taking some of the metaphorical or figurative comments of those philosophers at face value. It contains useful information, for sure (the section on Hart's belief that they exist is good) but I believe it could be better integrated into a general "modern belief in fairies" section. Apcynan (talk) 08:31, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

Thank you. The section should be clarified regarding how this is only a minority idea within Christianity. And Tolkien is only explicit about the possible reality of fairies in two places, the conversation reported by Lewis and the “Manuscript B” that I note. In addition to the five or so modern Christian thinkers, there are many example that are not modern, however, and I think it makes the most sense consolidated as a minority voice within Christianity. Jjhake (talk) 12:42, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

@Apcynan: reading over your comment again, I might need to put some quotes into the citations to help here. The “Manuscript B” by Tolkien is clearly a second example of Tolkien being very glad to entertain a literal belief in fairies. The material from Milbank, Clark, Hart, and Lewis are all substantial as well in the more modern era. There is much more that could be cited when it comes to premodern Christianity as well, of course. Jjhake (talk) 12:57, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

@Apcynan: I've tried restructuring the section to achieve several things: 1) make it clear that belief in fairies is a minority position within the Christian tradition, 2) follow a chronological order to allow for notes on the changes in the nature of belief that do take place with modernity, 3) select a more clear and explicit passage from Tolkien. There are no doubt far too many block quotes, and those should likely be summarized and cut down to very brief in-line quotations of just brief key phrases. I'm also open to the concern that this entire section is misplaced or poorly-structured in some more basic way, but I'm hoping that my few edits are starting to address some of the problems that you pointed. Jjhake (talk) 19:00, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

There seems to be a slight inaccuracy in the C.S. Lewis citation. Oberon does not, as far as I can find, ever say that his court does not fear church bells anywhere in MSND. What Lewis says in The Discarded Image is "Shakespeare may have had practical as well as poetical reasons for making Oberon assure us that he and his fellows are 'spirits of another sort' than those who have to vanish at daybreak (Dream, m, ii, 388)" (138). He is referring to Oberon replying to Puck's warning that the damned are returning to their graves for fear of morning alighting their shame by saying "But we are spirits of another sort. / I with the Morning’s love have oft made sport[.]"

There may be some confusion on the author's part with a memory of Rudyard Kipling's story "Weland's Sword"?: "'By Oak, Ash and Thorn,' cried Puck, taking off his blue cap, 'I like you too. Sprinkle a plenty salt on the biscuit, Dan, and I'll eat it with you. That'll show you the sort of person I am. Some of us' - he went on, with his mouth full - 'couldn't abide Salt, or Horse-shoes over a door, or Mountain-ash berries, or Running Water, or Cold Iron, or the sound of Church Bells. But I'm Puck!'" Willowerrant (talk) 02:40, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

There should be a note of Fairy's etymology from Peri

The word Fairy/Fae ultimately comes from the Indo-Iranian 'peri'. It's very odd that this page makes absolutely no mention of that. A bit dubious, if I'm being straightforward. 75.213.21.10 (talk) 10:32, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for the note. It does not look like most would consider there to be an etymological connection:

• https://www.etymonline.com/word/peri
• https://www.etymonline.com/word/fairy

However, I see some great sources to use in finding connections between stories, and will hope to find ways to improve the article using such content:

• "Oriental Fairy Tale and its Influence on European Literature: Intertextuality of Texts and Translations" by Sabohat Allamurodova and Bakhtiyor Rakhmanov
• "The Indo-Iranian Influence on Tolkien" by Michael McClain

Jjhake (talk) 15:52, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

Yes, the OED for "Fairy" and "Fay" doesn't take it any further back than the Latin. Johnbod (talk) 01:53, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

improper paragraph

the paragraph

A group of fairies is called a “spark.” For instance, “the spark of fairies moved so quickly they looked like a flash of lightning.”

is uncited, narrative dialogue, and generally detracts from the article. it should be removed. 2601:649:0:E890:C073:FBFD:6E2:57ED (talk) 23:06, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

True. I think that I added the citation needed tag a long while back. Another issue with it is that it was just inserted into the lede. If a good sources exists, such info might go in the article body somewhere but not the lede. Just deleted it. Jjhake (talk) 00:55, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 10 August 2023

Change Celtic to Gael 146.198.75.64 (talk) 19:08, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. The word "Celtic" appears 10 times in this article. Please make your request more specific. Pinchme123 (talk) 22:29, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

Fairies, Sidhe, and Skeaghshee

Your information about the fae is wonderful, and it is really helpful in my book, Estrella. But there are a few things you need to revise, and you missed many things. Now, this is just Irish culture, but on the creation of fairies you need to add the origin of fallen angels mating with humans, creating the Fae. Also, the Skeaghshee. They are tree fairies who live outside of The Middle Kingdom in a fairy mound. They pledge alliance to their goddess, Morrigna (Morr-e-gna) and the Sidhe. You see, the Sidhe, Skeaghshee, and the Fairies are all branches of The Nephilim. I just thought I would add some insight. 76.145.181.225 (talk) 21:05, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

You need to provide a reliable source. —VeryRarelyStable 11:07, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

Oh, well thank you for responding to me in such a timely manner. I always forget to add a reliable source, I know that it is in a book I read called The Last Days of Magic by Mark Tompkins. I understand it does not do anything for the Wikipedia page, and I am sorry if this was a waste of time. Perhaps you can research this a little more? I am not really allowed to research such things, but maybe you can? This is one of my first times on Wikipedia Talk, so please excuse my unprofessional formatting.

Wishing you a merry Christmas,

CloverPool 76.145.181.225 (talk) 04:06, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

Nevermind, you do not have to worry about it all! Happy Holidays! 76.145.181.225 (talk) 23:03, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

Rewrite request: Arthurian fairies are NOT only Morgan, and NOT only in Malory

Malory's Morgan le Fay was just an awkward semi-translation of the French la fee Morgane (first used centuries before Malory and used still today: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fée_Morgane), also known as Fata Morgana in Italian etc. One other notable Arthurian sometimes-fairy is the Lady of the Lake.

As explained by Richard Cavendish in King Arthur and the Grail: The Arthurian Legends and Their Meaning (p.41):

"Fay is an old word for fairy, but ‘fairy’ nowadays has all the wrong connotations. It suggests a little, insipid, sugary, gauzy-winged sprite out of a story for small children. There is nothing childish or insipid about Morgan and the other Arthurian fays, who are tall, commanding and seductively beautiful. Dominating, ruthless, sensual and unpredictable, they are sometimes benevolent and sometimes cruel. They have formidable magical powers and are intensely dangerous to cross. They are of a race older than man, and they are either immortal or live far longer than any human span. They appear in the human world whenever they wish, but their true home is in the otherworld or land of faerie. Although the legend makes Morgan Arthur’s half-sister, she retains her faery characteristics."

This sample (late) medieval French image may also serve as an illustration of this concept: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:IRHT_17155_2_P.jpg (Lancelot being courted by "Morgaine"). 5.173.76.191 (talk) 10:02, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

The numbers are wrong.

I thought while I was reading the article that it seemed off, but then when I got to this statement, I was sure of it: "While such negative or skeptical ideas remained the majority positions for Christians, some exceptions can be found such as the Scottish minister Robert Kirk who wrote The Secret Commonwealth of Elves, Fauns and Fairies in the later seventeenth century (1893)." -- 1893 is the 19th century! I fear more century/year numbers are off as well, and the article needs to be checked. 2600:6C5D:5800:1:8CFD:A17B:722F:110A (talk) 07:54, 26 November 2024 (UTC)