Talk:Electronic dance music

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Requested move 13 February 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Electronic dance music → Dance music – Decided to finally have a look at the fragmented/confusing articles on dance/EDM I talk about above, I've merged the bulk of the unique content from the existing Dance music article nicely into this page (since this was substantially larger) under the 'historic dancing music' heading, and I've shifted the focus of this article away from the outdated/American term 'EDM'. Seems natural to me to rehome this page as 'Dance music' and tidy what we can from there? Would really love to cover more of the nuance of dance too going forward, incl. genres, history, and international influence. Might end up splitting 'EDM' back off again at some point to break off the detail on the marketing/commerical-drive it came from, still feels tangentical to the rest of the body. Think this direction all makes sense? Very satisying clean up I've got to say. Orangeisacop (talk) 00:26, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

• Huh? There is already a dance music article. Are you suggesting a merge? AngusW🐶🐶F (bark • sniff) 01:11, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

  Ah, sorry this ran pretty late last night. I don't think there's anything left on dance music that's still unique to that page? Short snippets of genres are taken from their own pages, the biggest section 'electronic dance music' was echoing this article, and the one other section on historic dance I've worked into this article under 'historic dancing music' (does this need the copied tag if the original page won't exist any longer?). I'm suggesting deleting that page and having this one take it's title and place, and going from there with other improvements. Orangeisacop (talk) 12:14, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

Orangeisacop, if you are moving content from one article to the other, you need to add {{copied}} templates on the talk pages for both. AngusW🐶🐶F (bark • sniff) 01:19, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose, OP is suggesting some sort of undiscussed merge which seems misguided IMO. 162 etc. (talk) 04:00, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

• I see where you are going with the division and I like the idea of spltting club/dance and EDM. But I do not support this particular merge. I see the whole dance music tree this way:

• dance music = historical classical-associated dance music (ballet, polka, tons of other forms) + folk dance music + club/dance + other variants
• club/dance = electronic dance music + disco + post-disco + dance rock (alternative dance & dance-punk) + dance-pop + some R&B and hip hop genres + maybe funk carioca genres
• electronic dance music = house, trance, techno, breakbeat, and so on
• so called "mainstage EDM" as mainstream/commercial/festival electronic dance music trend by which the term EDM has been understood for the past decade

"EDM" is definitely not an outdated American term, but just a trend some people and media imply by referring to it. That trend has faded in popularity comparing to the 2010s (the media even use "post-EDM" term starting the late 2010s), but electronic dance music itself is still the biggest category of music in use. A separate article on "mainstage EDM" would be useful. But I'm definitely against lumping all these concepts into one articles. I believe that both dance music and electronic dance music need to be reworked based on the scheme above, and probably with creating of the #3 and #4 articles, but it will take a huge effort. Solidest (talk) 11:38, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

I agree splitting off the 'EDM' trend/genre/style as a seperate article would be a good step to take at some point, would help really focus the body of this acticle as a high-level take on the genres. I'd have to disagree about the breakdown of terms you've gone for there, however. With your first point, I don't think anyone views the genres of polka, folk, or rock and roll (currently in Dance music) as 'dance music', and I think the origins of trational dance (for lack of a better word) is already covered in detail within Dance. (Also briefly included as historical context under the heading 'Historical dancing music' here)

I would also argue that point 1/2 are the the same, and what I'm proposing this page (when moved to 'dance music') should cover. There's lots of blurred lines with all music genres, but there's a clear genealogy between disco and house with many genres in-between (italo disco), or reggae and jungle, or hiphop and afrobeats to breakbeats and jungle. All have similar cultures, politics, and roots in working-class communities too, and many are still found at dance events and played by dance DJs. Don't think electronic-ness is a good reason to divide (is dance-pop not electronic?) with electronic music covering unique bits to tech history/production there - and what music isn't produced electronically these days ;) Orangeisacop (talk) 12:09, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

Here is a detailed list of what is meant by dance music: https://id.loc.gov/authorities/genreForms/gf2014026753.html , also Category:Dance music genres. The articles on wikis in other languages that developed independently, have roughly the same picture. The electronic divide is something that can be traced back to a lot of sources, and it simply cannot be ignored. Dance-pop is not necessarily electronic, early days tracks are closer to funk/disco, there is even contemporary Latin-influenced non-electronic dance pop. Classical dance music genres (Category:Dance forms in classical music) are also a pretty established thing in musicology, which it would be wrong to leave out for the dance article. Solidest (talk) 13:23, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

That link lists Wikipedia as its source, and doesn't feature house, techno, or disco - which I'm sure we can agree are all certainly dance genres, so not sure what you're getting at. Many disco tracks are electronic, feature synths and electronic drums, is disco also EDM? I do agree that electronic music plays a big part in dance music, but it's not a dividing line was what I meant - jungle and drum and bass have more in common with reggae/ragga than house. Lots of forms of techno have huge latin-influence. Many south asian DJs feature Bhangra alongside garage and techno tracks.

The latter catgory focuses on types of classical dance that have accompanying classical music? As I've said I think classical/traditional forms of dance music form good context, but there are better and more accurate terms used by historians to group these, such as ballroom or folk music, rather than 'dance music'. I'll admit dance music isn't clearly defined as a term, but I'd bet what readers are more likely to expect on the article, probably why electronic dance music was most of the dance music page anyways (Wikipedia:Common names). Orangeisacop (talk) 14:09, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

Agree that "mainstage EDM" would be useful for a plethora of brostep/bigroom/edmtrap-derived genres created during the 2010s (they have quite specific sound, quite specific song structure, coherent scene all related to the 2010s "EDM push" in the USA, and I think the plenty of sources will back it all up), but I think it would be better to call it "2010s mainstage EDM", partially due to the fact that right now the same mainstage EDM producers are busy reviving the 2000s sound, and, as you said, descriptors such as post-EDM are floating around (possibly implying that the 2010s festival era sound is done for good?). I am thorn though whether a separate "electronic dance music" article is required, because, from one side, what else new it could say apart from the specific genre articles? but from the other side, yes,this is a bloated descriptor, but it's notable, backed by sources and it exists, thats all it needs to have an article. The current bloat of an article should be completely rewritten though. 178.121.5.171 (talk) 15:16, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

@Orangeisacop @Solidest I also think that "infobox music genre" should be removed from "dance music" and should never be introduced here. Electronic dance music/EDM and "dance music" are not genres, they are high level retconned descriptors/umbrella terms, which lack specific traits common for "real genres" - they havent originated from a specific subculture/place/period of time, they are both a lot of things lumped together. Just like those radio formats, which set some rules for what they accept and dont accept, but almost never they are proper genres.

There are cases when retconned descriptors define a genre which never had name during its heyday (minimal synth being an arguable example), and there are cases where radio formats of the past become a sort of "genres" (80s AOR, 90s-00s adult comtemporary) in the distant future, but EDM is not among these cases. 178.121.5.171 (talk) 15:32, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

• Support makes sense to me. EDM is a dated term I agree, and electronic dance music (not EDM) probably doesn't need it's own page since electronic music and the individual genre pages (like acid house) talk about their own production/histories there. Dance music is a more accurate umbrella term and title for the content on this article with a few tweaks, don't think it's worth getting hung up on classical forms of dance when that's covered much better elsewhere and isn't always representive of international styles. Opens up broad-strokes discussion about stylistic influences and the culture/politics of these genres/dance music as a whole too, which I think is really interesting. Birdbagle (talk) 14:30, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Merge propsal

Whoops, above should've been a merge proposal, my apologies. Moving discussion to Talk:Dance music. Orangeisacop (talk) 15:42, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Sustainable Futures

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 22 January 2024 and 10 May 2024. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Jeanie.chan (article contribs).

— Assignment last updated by Jeanie.chan (talk) 21:30, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

cultural impact of EDM

Hi! I’m a new editor here. I’d like to expand the Cultural Impact section of the EDM article to include a more detailed analysis of the genre’s rise to mainstream popularity in the 2010s. Specifically, I want to focus on how EDM influenced pop music during this period and how collaborations between EDM producers and mainstream pop stars (e.g.,Calvin Harris and Rihanna) became a defining feature of the genre. I’ll be backing this up with sources like articles from Billboard and The Guardian. Any feedback or suggestions would be appreciated!" Yzubiate (talk) 05:20, 26 November 2024 (UTC)