Talk:Anti-Islamism

Anti-Islamism

Can 'Anti-Islamism' not redirect here. Redirecting 'Anti-Islamism' to 'Anti-Islam' wrongly associates the two. Anti-Islamism is the opposition to the spread of political/militant/extremist Islam, and not opposition to Islam as a whole. Associating Anti-Islamism with Anti-Islam in this way, will give people the false impression that Anti-Islamism is racist. Please can something be done. Colt .55 (talk) 15:44, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

It is quite contentious to distinguish between the various terms. For example, is 'anti-Islam' criticism of Islam, or Islamophobia, or even persecution of Muslims? That is why we seem to have a disambig page which allows the read to pick the page according to how he/she interprets the term.VR _talk 23:46, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Redirect

A certain user tried to redirect this article. I reverted it because there was no consensus for this move. Pass a Method talk 11:06, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

There has been no reasons given for the redirect to Islamophobia, so I will change back as I explained why I think it should redirect to Criticism of Islam. Blueroom2 (talk) 21:49, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

General consensus was reached here. Please stop redirecting the article, as it violates WP:NPOV. NarSakSasLee (talk) 23:09, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

I don't think it does violate NPOV. Blueroom2 shouldn't be revert warring and a firm slap on the wrist from an admin should be forthcoming, but the "general consensus" for this redirect is a bit flimsy. Consensus can change. The AfD closing was a bit crap to be honest: a non-admin closure where the user had participated in the AfD?! That's not on! The problem with this redirect is it seems to suggest that anyone who is "anti-Islam" is Islamophobic, just as anyone who is "anti-Christianity" isn't Christophobic or Christianophobic or whatever term the religious lobby have come up with to conflate criticism of religion with persecution of religion. Why not have a disambiguation page instead that links to both Islamophobia and Criticism of Islam? Hasty consensus and a shaky non-admin AfD closure? —Tom Morris (talk) 10:04, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

I agree with Tom Morris. Some other examples, should anti-capitalism, anti-communism, anti-colonialism, also be equated with a phobia? Certainly not I think. Why should we do like this with anti-islam? It seems to be a rhetorical way to dismiss criticism as an irrational disorder. Blueroom2 (talk) 19:10, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Why should it redirect to "Criticism of..."? We already established during the deletion consensus that it should redirect to Islamophobia because if someone was Anti-Semetic it doesn't mean criticism of Semites. Same thing with Judaism. If someone is Anti-Judaism, how would that equate with Criticism of Judaism? It would equate more with Anti-Semetism of which Islamophobia is the same thing. It's too soon decide another consensus right after deletion. "Anti" means opposed to or against. Whether that's religious or cultural is another issue. It makes more sense to redirect it towards Islamophobia, rather than "criticism of Islam". Islam is a religion, its not a political idealogy. NarSakSasLee (talk) 23:57, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

There is a considerable difference to be against an etnicity such as Jews (antisemitism) or Arabs and to be against a religion or ideology. Religions and ideologies are more comparable. Antisemitism is not comparable with Islamophobia, but with Anti-Arabism. And Judaism and Islam can't really be compared either, because Judaism to a larger degree refers not only to the religion, a Jew is also an etnicity while a Muslim is not an etnicity.Blueroom2 (talk) 13:24, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

I disagree. Prove your claims with sources. In consensus it was decided that it should re-direct to Islamophobia because Islamophobia is the same as Antisemitism. Arabs are a semetic group too so it would be the same thing. There are already several sources in the article that prove this: Professor Anne Sophie Roald writes that steps were taken toward official acceptance of the term in January 2001 at the "Stockholm International Forum on Combating Intolerance", where Islamophobia was recognized as a form of intolerance alongside Xenophobia and Antisemitism.[6] Furthermore at the top of the Islamophobia page there is already a link to "criticism of Islam". That seems more than fair to place it right at the top of the page. Can you explain why and how the word "anti" means "criticism"? NarSakSasLee (talk) 16:35, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

See this source [1]. "Words like Islamophobia and phrases like anti-Muslim bigotry are bandied about too liberally, often applied to those who merely criticize fanatical Islamic radicalism or point out the deep-seated problems in much of Muslim culture today." Anti doesn't exactly mean neither criticism nor phobia (but more the former than the latter). This is why I think it could be a disambuigation page. Moreover both Criticism of Islam and Islamophobia are in the category:Anti-Islam. That seems to support my opinion. Blueroom2 (talk) 10:53, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Opinionated sources are not sources that are acceptable to wikipedia (please check out this policy on neutrality). The fact your saying its somehow "liberal" again is showing that you're biased towards right wing views. Wikipedia is not a forum. Since "radicalism" in their community is so small, any notion of anti-Islam behaviour should be comparable with Islamophobia. You're assuming Islam is a political thing when its religious and cultural in nature. Since Islamophobia deals with the irrational fear and hatred of Islam and Muslims, someone who describes themselves as anti-Islam is being Islamophobic. NarSakSasLee (talk) 13:05, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

There is nothing wrong with sources that expresses an opinion. You are right that the majority of muslims are not very radical but that does not mean that the laws and rules of Islam itself are not radical, and to be against them would not be irrational or a phobia. I quote this article [2] "Islamophobia is not synonymous to anti-Islam beliefs that are grounded upon metaphysical arguments." Note also from the Criticism section of Islamophobia that there are many reasons why this concept should not be used too casually. Blueroom2 (talk) 17:34, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

You haven't provided any legitimate sources, only blogs. NarSakSasLee (talk) 18:02, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

It was just a quote and the first source was a magazine. Anyway I will leave this discussion because it's not leading anywhere. Blueroom2 (talk) 19:46, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Disambiguation

Why don't we make it a disambiguation like this:

Anti-Islam can refer to

• Criticism of Islam
• Islamophobia

Wouldn't that solve the dispute over where to redirect the lemma? --RJFF (talk) 01:36, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Excellent idea. I'd like the choice and I'm sure many others would also. Jason from nyc (talk) 15:33, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

Disagree, the debate was already resolved over a general consensus found here. The logic follows that Anti-Judaism is the same thing as Anti-Semitism (or Judeophobia as it was known previously), so Anti-Islam is same thing as Islamophobia. I fail to see how Anti-Islam relates in any way to the criticism of Islam itself as the word doesn't deal with the ideology of Islam in its use. Furthermore many news agencies who report Anti-Islamic behaviour often refer to it as being Islamophobia. In other words the suggestion above would give undue weight to "Criticism of Islam". NarSakSasLee (talk) 22:20, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

It doesn't look like the issue was adequately discussed. Let me address what you wrote above.

1. It's the same as anti-Judaism. You are cherry-picking. Anti-American doesn't redirect to Americanophobia but just the opposite. That example would suggest the redirection should be reversed.

2. The word doesn't deal with the ideology of Islam. Counter-examples: Ibn Warraq, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Wafa Sultan are all anti-Islam but not bigoted against Muslims. Indeed, they consider themselves Muslims.

3. News reports of "anti-Islamic behavior". Intellectual analysis isn't "behavior" reported by news agencies.

I suggest the choice would make sense and we re-open the discussion. We shouldn't let a mistake stand. Jason from nyc (talk) 15:31, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

No, there's too much undue weight if we include "criticism of Islam" being the same as "Anti-Islam" (see policy). They are two and separate things. Point 1 has nothing to do with cherry picking more so what was concluded on consensus which was adequately discussed. Point 2 refers to people who are just critical of Islam they are not Anti-Islamic. Since Islam is not a political entity anything Anti-Islamic would be Islamophobic. The page suffered from frequent definition edit wars before consensus was reached - reopening the debate would just lead to more pointless debating. NarSakSasLee (talk) 22:15, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

Undue weight? There's 14 centuries of criticism and hostility to the religion of Islam and only one or two decades of Islamophobia. It's the latter that has undue weight. You aren't addressing my objections but merely dismissing me. Clearly the issue wasn't adequately discussed or else the reasons would be better than you are offering and you'd be able to deal with my objections. If anyone wants to examine and explore the issue I'm available. Jason from nyc (talk) 01:56, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

See the Islamophobia article and the persecution of Muslims for the issues you have a problem with - Wikipedia doesn't make up definitions as its original research. I've addressed all your points (see above for more detail and further discussions back and the talk page on the deletion debate of this page - its very clear that Anti-Islam is akin to Islamophobia and not the same thing as "criticism of Islam". Judeophobia is the same thing as Anti-Semitism - not Criticism of Semites.). Besides, right above the Islamophobia article it says "This article is about discrimination. For criticism of Islam, see Criticism of Islam. For criticism of political Islam, see Criticism of Islamism" - that's a really good compromise the editors came up with. You simply can't regurgitate the exact same arguments again and again after consensus has been met several times, as your arguments represent undue weight (see anti-Semitism example above to see how silly the arguments for inclusion of "Criticism of Islam" are). You said it yourself "There's 14 centuries of criticism and hostility to the religion of Islam" - you just illustrated that Anti-Islam is akin to Islamophobia. NarSakSasLee (talk) 11:28, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

First of all Jewish can be a religion, race, or ethnicity. Islam, like Christianity, seeks converts from every race. Thus, comparisons of racist hatred of Judaism are obviously different to doctrinal disagreements with Judaism. Immanuel Kant, for example, was critical of Judaism and even refused to call it a religion. However (according to a recent biography) he defended Jews and fought for their right to teach at his university. He wasn’t anti-Semitic even if he as against Judaism as a religion. He also doesn’t fall under the Wikipedia definition of Antisemitism as a consequence. That’s a well written introduction. You haven’t addressed my point about Americanophobia reverting to anti-Americanism and we’ll see why in a moment.

Yes, I wrote there are “14 centuries of criticism and hostility” to Islam but that doesn’t mean all criticism or hostility to a philosophy is Islamophobia, which is a pejorative. I gave three examples of people who are critics and I can come up with well-meaning historians and philosophers who have doctrinal disagreements without being bigoted against a people. Yes, most are critical of religion in general. From your last statement and question begging statement -- “Anti-Islamic would be Islamophobic” -- it is clear that you have an agenda and point of view to identify all criticism of Islam with bigotry. That’s not what the literature shows. That’s not what history shows. That’s a point of view.

Since Islamophobia is a perjorative there will be no literature of advocates of Islamophobia. No one self-applies that label (except a few crazies). There is serious criticism of Islam (and a poorly written article about it). A disambiguation page would be appropriate to allow the reader a choice and not imply that criticism is necessarily bigotry. Since the neologicism, Islamophobia is the underweighted term in 14 centuries of history, it should be the exception, not the standard. Jason from nyc (talk) 13:16, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

All of the above is simply original research and POV pushing ("Muslim" for example you say "is not an ethnicity" whilst "being Jewish is" (this is clearly not the case since there are Black Jews). According to several countries Muslims are referred to as "ethnic Muslims" - Bosnia is a prime example). Islamophobia - according to you, doesn't exist or is used as a "pejorative term" (that's not how dictionaries define the word nor the academic world in general). In summary, you sound exactly like an Islamophobe denying anything like it exists. Nevertheless your personal opinions aside, we can't simply have your own opinion of what defines Islamophobia dictate the redirect since several European organisations class Islamophobia as a form of discrimination; hence anything Anti-Islamic comes under the definition of Islamophobia. This is a non-issue since the Islamophobia page already has a disambiguation link before the start of the article. In case you didn't already know Islam is a culture as well as a religion. This is a further reason why the word "Anti-Islam" should redirect to Islamophobia since it better fits the bill. I can't see how Anti-Semitism should redirect to "Criticism of Semites" or Anti-Judaism should redirect to "Criticism of Judaism". Indeed Anti-Judaism, like the Islamophobia article, has above it a disambiguation link, linking to "criticism of Judaism" precisely because a disambiguation page linking to the two different things would violate WP:UNDUE. NarSakSasLee (talk) 14:46, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

I never said “Muslim is not an ethnicity”. As a matter of fact I never used the word Muslim. It is clear that I’m talking about Islam and I referred to it as a religion and/or philosophy. Obviously it also refers to a culture and practitioners. That’s why one needs disambiguation. I never said Islamophobia doesn’t exist. Obviously excessive or ill-intentioned criticism can and does exist. However, not all criticism of religion or a religion is motivated by mean-spiritedness. Have you ever heard of atheism? Or are they just theophobic to you? Over 14 centuries of criticism exists, some ill-intentioned and some sober reflection. I give several examples of contemporary critics. I’m not taking issue with the Islamophobic article. I’m taking issue with your POV that anything anti-islamic is Islamophobic. Anti-Islam is a factual non-judgmental word that could refer to sober criticism of religion or excessive mean-spirited prejudice. That’s why the reader should be given a choice of the articles on a disambiguation page. The criticism page has a longer history and should be listed first. The Islamophobia page is a recent term that is clearly meant to castigate an excess and it has a lessor weight historically.

Again you refuse to address the embarrassing implication that Americanophobia redirects one to anti-Americanism. It seems in your view there can’t be sober rational criticism of Islam and there can’t be undue bigoted criticism of America. I get it. And so will others. This leaves Wikipedia looking bigoted and anti-American. Jason from nyc (talk) 15:20, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

I don't understand, are you saying Americanophobia should redirect to Criticism of Americans? That's even more absurd. The word "Islam" generally encompasses religion, culture and to an extent ethnicity but more importantly identity. Criticism of Islam is only a very minute part of being "Anti-Islamic" - its akin to Anti-Semitism or Judeophobia - and I'll reiterate this once more this is why there is a disambiguation link above the Islamophobia article that already addresses your concerns. NarSakSasLee (talk) 00:29, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I see you don't understand. Let me see if I can make myself clear. Americanophobia as a pejorative means an unfounded or excessive criticism just as Islamophobia is a pejorative that implies an excess. There is fair criticism of America, Islam or anything for that matter. Good people can disagree and find fault with another's ideas without disrespecting the person.

In the last several centuries (since Voltaire) philosophers have criticized religion: Christianity, Islam, and all others. There is nothing "phobic" about a sober assessment of any religion. This is part of the Western tradition of subjecting any and every idea to critical scrutiny. Thus, being critical or against any religion should not in and of itself be condemned across the board. Denying the rights of individuals on the basis of their religion, of course, is reprehensible.

Thus, we need a disambiguation page to choose between the more common "criticism of belief" that has been apart of the Western tradition since the Enlightenment and the more recent bigotry to individual human beings that are now minority members of our society (Islamophobia). Distinctions are important and lumping disparate matters into one pejorative or giving the more recent less prevalent attitude the top billing is disrespectful to the long tradition of Western secular thought? Jason from nyc (talk) 00:59, 27 March 2012 (UTC)