Talk:Albanians/Archive 6

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Edit request

Please replace the Italian Albanian actor Aleksandër Moisiu with the American Albanian actor Jim Belushi only because he is more popular.--45.33.137.220 (talk) 13:27, 24 October 2015 (UTC)

There is a solution to the matter. One the infox template needs to be upgraded. On the Serbs page, their info box, it slightly shrinks the photos, and gives the names down below creating less clutter and it also creates some more room for additions. If the template is changed, maybe some 5 or six individuals who are prominent amongst the Albanian community can be added. Who's good with template stuff to do a change, if other editors think its the way to go ?Resnjari (talk) 01:26, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

I leave it up to you Resnjari and the co-editors of this article to decide who can be included in the infobox. I just reverted some changes that added the two Belushi brothers in a group of thirty personalities because I thought two people from the same family may be a tad excessive. But I leave this entirely in your hands and those of the other regulars here. Dr.K. (talk) 02:32, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

Thank you Dr.K. To all editors out there, I am not a template person, so more input will be needed here from other editors who have an interest in the article and infobox templates. Some overhaul of the infobox looks like it might be needed. The case for the addition of about 5 or 6 more people has some merit. On the Serbs article, their infobox seems to do the job by slightly shrinking the portrait pictures (creating more space) and removing the clutter of names to the bottom. There might be other template styles out there available also. Any assistance from anyone on the matter would be great. Best regards.Resnjari (talk) 03:15, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

Ok, i've been looking into the matter and options are limited. The infobox templates are only this one (currently in the Albanian page) that can be amended at will. With say the Serbians infobox, all portrait pics have been combined into a picture image and then placed into the infobox. It would mean that someone would have to do it (to combine and create the image) and then it also makes it difficult to amend in later times. A more simple solution would be to add an extra column, thereby allowing for 6 notable Albanians to be placed into the infobox and no more. So by having 6 columns and 6 rows each, it would slightly expand the infobox but still not make it unsightly. See the Turks page for the aesthetics of the page. Your thoughts on the matter fellow editors? Best.Resnjari (talk) 06:11, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

There is an ongoing discussion about removing such galleries from ethnicity infoboxes entirely which would supersede this edit request, therefore I'm marking the edit request as answered for now. Altamel (talk) 17:52, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

If I could qualify that further, it's actually an WP:RfC currently underway here. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 21:53, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

All Albanians were Orthodox until the middle of the thirteenth century?

This claim, that all Albanians were Orthodox until the middle of the thirteenth century, is directly contradicted by an eleventh-century fragment on the origin of nations:

It can be seen that there are various languages on earth. Of them, there are five Orthodox languages: Bulgarian, Greek, Syrian, Iberian (Georgian) and Russian. Three of these have Orthodox alphabets: Greek, Bulgarian and Iberian. There are twelve languages of half-believers (non-Orthodox Christains): Alamanians, Franks, Magyars (Hungarians), Indians, Jacobites, Armenians, Saxons, Lechs (Poles), Arbanasi (Albanians), Croatians, Hizi, Germans.

--24.228.117.156 (talk) 06:26, 23 December 2015 (UTC)

Reliable and published modern scholarly secondary sources have advantage to millenium old primary sources.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 19:58, 25 December 2015 (UTC)

The editor referring to Orthodox Albanians in the early medaevil era should check out this wp:reliable book and especially the chapter by :Giakoumis, Konstantinos (2010). "The Orthodox Church in Albania Under the Ottoman Rule 15th-19th Century." In Oliver Jens Schmitt (ed.). Religion und Kultur im albanischsprachigen Südosteuropa. Peter Lang. The whole book is about conversions etc of Balkan Albanian speaking areas.Resnjari (talk) 10:34, 26 December 2015 (UTC)

All Albanians were Orthodox Christians until the middle of the 13th century when the Ghegs were converted to Catholicism as a mean to resist the Slavs.

• Leften Stavros Stavrianos (January 2000). The Balkans Since 1453. C. Hurst & Co. Publishers. p. 498. ISBN 978-1-85065-551-0. Retrieved 17 July 2013. Religious differences also existed before the coming of the Turks. Originally, all Albanians had belonged to the Eastern Orthodox Church... Then the Ghegs in the North adopted in order to better resist the pressure of Orthodox Serbs.
• Hugh Chisholm (1910). Encyclopaedia britannica: a dictionary of arts, sciences, literature and general information. Encyclopaedia Britannica. p. 485. Retrieved 18 July 2013. The Roman Catholic Ghegs appear to liave abandoned the Eastern for the Western Church in the middle of the 13th century
• Ramet, Sabrina P. (1989). Religion and Nationalism in Soviet and East European Politics. Duke University Press. p. 381. ISBN 0-8223-0891-6. Prior to the Turkish conquest, the ghegs (the chief tribal group in northern Albania) had found in Roman Catholicism a means of resisting the Slavs, and though Albanian Orthodoxy remained important among the tosks (the chief tribal group in southern Albania),...--Antidiskriminator (talk) 12:01, 26 December 2015 (UTC)

The edited book by Schmitt has numerous chapters about conversion etc. Catholicism did not gain fully amongst the Ghegs though with their geographical space. For example in Elbasan (a gheg city) there was and still is a sizable number of indigenous Orthodox Albanians. It was one of their number Kostandin Kristoforidhi who translated the bible into both Albanian dialects in the 19th century. The rate at which Gegs became Catholic and then Muslim is very complex. The Schmitt book starts to look at the matter more thoroughly. Nonetheless it varies by locality and region.Resnjari (talk) 12:25, 26 December 2015 (UTC)

Again Albanian indigenous blood and their Balkan soil? Does every single edit of yours has to be dedicated to the promotion of (anti-)Albanian nationalistic mythology? This discussion is about the religion of Albanians at the end of medieval times. Not about blood and soil of "indigenous Orthodox Albanians", "Ghegs ... with their geographical space", "Balkan Albanian speaking areas", ... It really is about the time for you and other editors with whom you coordinate your actions to drop the stick. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 15:56, 26 December 2015 (UTC)

Anti, i meant indigenous in Elbasan as in they are from Elbasan, local, grounded and rooted to the area for an extensive period of time. Not recent new comers. And yes the Schmitt book i cited does cover the meadevil period and the Ottoman period. My comment was that not all gegs became Catholic or there after Muslim. I notable minority stayed Orthodox and that was in Elbasan. See that comment there of yours was totally uncalled for and in no way did i contradict the sources that you gave above, but only adding that there where still Ghegs who were Orthodox in our time and they were found in sizable numbers in Elbasan. I can easily cite a Greek wp:reliable and wp:secondary source for example:

Asterios Koukoudis (2003). The Vlachs: Metropolis and Diaspora. Zitros. p.358. "Aravandinos mentions the existence of 150 Vlach families in Elbasan in the mid-nineteenth century, while at the end of the nineteenth century there were 3,000 Moslem families and 280 Orthodox Christian families. Of these, about 100 old Albanian-speaking Christian families lived in the old Christian quarter in the fortress, while 180 more prosperous Vlach families lived in the St. Nicholas district on the outskirts of the town."

And as for Elbasan being a Gheg settlement, take your pick, there are many peer reviewed sources that state this (see google books search): [1]

There are still Orthodox Ghegs, just not to many of them these days. Not all went Catholic, not all became Muslim.So your comments are completely uncalled for. See, this comment here "(anti-)Albanian nationalistic mythology?" and "It really is about the time for you and other editors with whom you coordinate your actions" go against the wp:civil. The above user who asked a query, i am merely adding on to the answers that editors had. I gave a detailed and wp:reliable source (i.e: Schmitt) if that editor wishes to delve further into the complicated matter of Albanians and conversion etc. And with whom am i supposedly "cordinating" my actions ? What is this based on ? I also find it offensive that you equate my use of indigenous with Nazism there as you have put a link to "blood and soil". I am aware of what indigenous means, my work in academia is with Aboriginal Australians. That does not mean that the word indigenous cannot be used for other places and contexts.Please see wp:civil.Resnjari (talk) 16:48, 26 December 2015 (UTC)

"Rest of Balkans"

The infobox states, regarding the Albanian diaspora, "Rest of Balkans".

By that, one gets the impression that all Albanians in Turkey are living in Eastern Thrace, as thats the only soil Turkey has in the Balkans For consistency and article quality, this minor thing needs to be fixed I believe. - LouisAragon (talk) 04:19, 30 December 2015 (UTC)

"The term is also used sometimes to refer to the citizens of the Republic of Albania regardless of ethnicity"

The "...is also used sometimes to refer..." is classic weasel-wording. User by whom? Ethnic Greeks from Albania never refer to themselves as Albanians, in fact they find it highly offensive. Western sources also refer to ethnic Greeks from Albania as Greeks, not Albanians. Perhaps this is used by Albanians, but that smacks of nation-building. It is in fact reminiscent of similar ideologies in the area, e.g. Kemalism ("A Turk is anyone who is a citizen of Turkey"). It is very weakly sourced and should be removed. Athenean (talk) 06:15, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

I have cut out the ethnicity part from the sentence. It now reads: "The term is also used sometimes to refer to the citizens of the Republic of Albania."

Moreover, it is not weasel words. In a citizenship sense, the word Albanian is used to refer to its citizens. And in a citiznehsip sensne that is the case around the world. I live in Australia and i am a Australian as etc etc. I have placed the page numbers from that article which outlines Albanian citizenship. I am glad you refer to "offence". To bad some editors on Wikipedia don't find it applicable on all articles when "offence" is cited especially when a particular ethnic group never ever referred to themselves as such. Makes forums like those on Balkan Insight look like child's play....Resnjari (talk) 07:16, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

Whenever someone is referred to as "Albanian" in some sources, it is almost always argued by some editors who I prefer not to name that "Albanian" was used in a non-ethnic sense (demonym). For example, was Onufri an Albanian painter? Moreover, it's interesting seeing Athenean state that "Ethnic Greeks from Albania never refer to themselves as Albanians". I'll be damned. [Kone] must be a very confused man, don't you think Alexikoua (talk · contribs)? DevilWearsBrioni (talk) 11:14, 13 January 2016 (UTC)

opening sentence

As with many Albania-related articles, User:Athenean finds it easier just to remove content, taking out whole sentences as he wishes. The article has a level a protection for a certain reason and is of a certain importance. If Athenean does not find the opening sentences as they should be, he is welcomed to open a talk section and discuss what is wrong. He can always tag sentences as "cn" and therefore contribute to improvement. Just taking out the opening sentences where the Arbereshe and Arvanites are mentioned is not an improvement. And as always, some other wikipedians will back him up in order to push the other party in "edit warring" and cause intimidation. If you have anything in mind how the opening sentences should be instead, discuss here and let's see. Whoever added those sentences should be respected too.--Mondiad (talk) 03:13, 8 January 2016 (UTC)

I would say with the Arvanites part of the sentence, probably best it not be there. They don't identify as Albanians or its diaspora today. Whereas with he Arberesh, its more complicated. They do in sizable numbers identify as Albanians and have produced some number of prominent figures who where involved with the Albanian national awakening. Thoughts on the sentence being restored and only referring to the Arberesh? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Resnjari (talk • contribs) 03:21, 8 January 2016 (UTC)

The last opening sentence talks about the Albanian diaspora contributing in their own countries. Unless we agree that populations as Arbereshe, Arvanites, or Chams are not part of the diaspora and leave diaspora only for Albanian emigrants/expatriates abroad, the Arvanites should be the first to mention. No other Albanian sub-group listed in the article has contributed for their own country (in this case Greece) more than Arvanites. Arbereshe go to a certain extent, but they are mostly known for their contribute to the Albanian National Awakening rather than contribute to Italy. The sentence mentions the Albanians (as an ethic group, not national affiliation) in the perspective of contribute to wherever they leave, not related to the Republic of Albania, or any other nationalistic term. Athenean misunderstood it on the first place.--Mondiad (talk) 03:32, 8 January 2016 (UTC)

Due to the issues identified by Resnjari I agree that the Arvanites should not be mentioned at the lead but I have restored the Arbereshe. Dr. K. 03:40, 8 January 2016 (UTC)

Instead of personalizing discussions, Mondiad should consult some sources, for example this one that describes how the Arvanites not only do not identify as Albanians, but actually find it offensive. Athenean (talk) 04:37, 8 January 2016 (UTC)

We are not talking about the national consistence of the Arvanites, or their feeling towards the Albanians from north. They belong to different articles. This is an encyclopedic article which talks about Albanians in an ethnic point of view, as an ethnic group. And Arvanites are part of it, you can't deny that. Not even one or more Arvanites can deny that.--Mondiad (talk) 04:55, 8 January 2016 (UTC)

What is "National consistence"? "Ethnic point of view"? No, we don't want your "ethnic point of view". Only what reliable sources say. Athenean (talk) 00:33, 9 January 2016 (UTC)

National conscience, it's clearly a typo, not "consistence". You want reliable sources that Arvanites have contribute to the Greek state? No problem. Meanwhile, put a "citation needed" when you think a reference is needed, just dropping sentences is not really helping.--Mondiad (talk) 00:44, 9 January 2016 (UTC)

Citation needed template at the lead? What kind of article standards do you adhere by? Dr. K. 01:27, 9 January 2016 (UTC)

One could easily rephrase it, change it, or provide references. It's not difficult to find references to show how much the Arvanites have contributed to Greece. Or place some other tag, or open a discussion topic in the talk page. Is dropping the sentences the only alternative to "cn"?--02:20, 9 January 2016 (UTC)

I'll work something out. It would also need to say that they assimilated and self identify as Greeks today.Resnjari (talk) 02:46, 9 January 2016 (UTC)

Since the Arvanites are not Albanians, we should not mention them in the lede. Anyway, I consider the matter closed following your previous edit. Athenean (talk) 19:00, 9 January 2016 (UTC)

(edit conflict) That's not the issue. As I, Athenean, and Resnjari mentioned, Arvanites do not self-identify as Albanians so they have to be dropped from the sentence, nevermind their contributions to Greece. Did you read that part? Also read Resnjari's comment just below mine. Dr. K. 02:48, 9 January 2016 (UTC)

The article talks about Albanians in an ethnic sense "...are defined as an ethnic group native to Albania and neighboring countries". We all know that ethnicity is different from national conscience/ nationality, and different from citizenship. Why are you making such a big deal about Arvanites mentioned int the Albanians article? Nobody said they don't love Greece. You think the Albanians in Italy or Croatia don't love their countries? The sentence that was removed talked about "contribute to their own countries" not "contribute to Albania".--Mondiad (talk) 03:20, 9 January 2016 (UTC)

I'll work something out, a wording that is acceptable to all etc and sources. Leave this to me.Resnjari (talk) 03:22, 9 January 2016 (UTC)

Guys, leave this me, i'll work something out.Resnjari (talk) 02:55, 9 January 2016 (UTC)

@Mondiad: Did anyone talk about "love of country"? Please don't put words in other editors' mouths and read what other people are telling you including Resnjari. Dr. K. 05:14, 9 January 2016 (UTC)

We could have something about the Arvanites in the main article (history bit) discussing their migration, but it would also need to qualify that today they identify as Greeks and something about their assimilation. Having them in the lede would be problematic as those people only are linked to Albanians through language these days and even that link is tenuous at best.Resnjari (talk) 05:00, 8 January 2016 (UTC)

Its resolved. The whole section though did not need to be deleted however. Arberesh to varying degrees do see themselves as a old Albanian diaspora and have produced many prominent figures for the Albanian national movement. Only part of that sentence should have been removed, the bit about Arvanites.Resnjari (talk) 04:44, 8 January 2016 (UTC)

Thank you Resnjari. I restored the Arbereshe soon enough, so I think everyone should be happy now. Happy New Year by the way. Dr. K. 05:04, 8 January 2016 (UTC)

Happy New Year and thank you for edit. This article needs big fine tuning in general though over time. hehe. All the best.Resnjari (talk) 05:11, 8 January 2016 (UTC)

Thank you Resnjari for your kind words. Thank you also for improving the article. All the best to you too. Dr. K. 20:46, 8 January 2016 (UTC)

It seems that the following part needs to be rephrased since the inlines do not agree with the text (problematic parts have been tagged below) Between the 14th and 15th centuries, large numbers of Albanians migrated from the area of contemporary Albania to escape either various socio-political difficulties or the Ottoman conquest.[39] One population which became the Arvanites settled down in southern Greece who during the 19th and 20th centuries assimilated and today self identify as Greeks.Alexikoua (talk) 08:44, 11 January 2016 (UTC)

Added Gogonas and Nasse on Arvanites and Arbereshe. I'll get my hands on Ducellier this week to add to sentence about migrations. Readjusted the Arvanites sentences slightly to be precise with sources. Also the sentence about medaveil migrations is there because a sizable part of the Albanian speaking population migrated from those areas of todays Albania and used the self appellation of Arbereshe (shared by all Albanian speakers until the 18th century) and spoke dialects of Albanian. I have also made sure that the Arvanites are not cited as a Albanian diaspora and also that they do not constitute as Albanian in any contemporary sense and that they identify as Greeks (so there is not confusion. There is more stuff i need to get this week on other articles that i am editing with you when later in the week when i go to my university library.Resnjari (talk) 11:47, 11 January 2016 (UTC)

I wonder what makes you believe that Arvanites assimilated "from the 19th century onwards". The inlines do not claim that they weren't assimilated prior to the 19th century, let's say 18th.Alexikoua (talk) 19:14, 11 January 2016 (UTC)

I added [[wp::reliable]] and wp:secondary sources to clear up the matter. Sentence in lede is now in full agreement with sources and in lines. Best.Resnjari (talk) 04:54, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

Assimilation is a slow proccess that usually takes centuries. There is also strong evidence that hellenization started already from 16th century, per [[wp::reliable]] and wp:secondary sources, thus their "ethnic purity till end of 18th century" is a matter of debate.Alexikoua (talk) 08:04, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

I am more than aware of that, however the source you placed discusses Albanian mercenaries (Stratioti) drawn from the south-Western Balkans and areas where Arvanites lived that later where resettled in a Greek and or Italian environment. Your source/s must specifically refer to the Arvanite population as whole. I see nothing in what you have presented as referring to the Arvanites. This article is not about some small number of Albanian speaking mercenaries. Apart from being your interpretation and wp:original, that is misusing the source. The sentence discussing assimilation in in reference to the Arvanites, not Straditoi. Your comment there is based on wp:original and contradicts wp:reliable and wp:secondary Bintliff, Veremis, Tzanelli etc. Anyway Pappas does state "Hellenization was perhaps well on its way prior to service abroad, since Albanian stradioti had settled in Greek lands for two generations prior to their emigration to Italy. Since many served under Greek commanders and served together with Greek stradioti, the process continued. Another factor in this assimilative process was the stradioti's and their families' active involvement and affiliation with the Greek Orthodox or Uniate Church communities in Naples, Venice and elsewhere. Hellenization thus occurred as a result of common service and church affiliation." Most Arvanites were NOT stratioti to be exposed to such a process of hellenisation. Paapas states about it being a prior phenomenon as probably, whole scholars who have looked at the wider Arvanite population see it as occurring from the 19th century onwards. Pappas is only sure when it comes to these mercenaries serving, and not prior. As for "There is also strong evidence that hellenization started already from 16th century", where is it ??? Resnjari (talk) 08:20, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

As per wp:reliable and wp:secondary above there is no claim about their "Albanian purity" till the end of 18th, the fact that they retained a distinct identity doesn't place them together with the rest of Albanians. You asked "There is also strong evidence that hellenization started already from 16th century", and the answer is: "Hellenization was perhaps well on its way prior to service abroad, since Albanian stradioti had settled in Greek lands for two generations prior to their emigration to Italy."[[2]]. In general, fact is that the so-called Albanian identity of the Arvanites during Ottoman times is complete science fiction.Alexikoua (talk) 08:37, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

In case you over looked it, i have never said in my comments, nor do wp:reliable and wp:secondary sources dealing with the Arvanites that they constitute a Albanian ethnicity or minority. It is stated very clearly in the article that these Arvanites identify as Greeks. It is also stated in the article that these populations stem from Albanians or Albanian speakers, not Pelasgians as many of them these days like to believe or propagated in nationalist myths for various nation building purposes. As you can see, the sentence based on the sources which i don't see you refuting in any way (mind you i have not placed any Albanian sources, interestingly Greek academics and Bintliff who is a Oxford scholar). I got many more if you think there is ambiguity on the matter. I also went through the sources and your claim about them saying "Albanian purity" was nowhere to be found. Please do not base your comments on wp:original. . The Arvanites overwhelmingly underwent assimilation and became part of the Greek populace from the 19th century onwards. Base your comments on wp:reliable and wp:secondary sources. Thank you.Resnjari (talk) 09:52, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

Can we define "hellenization" and "Albanian purity" and its relevance here? According to Ursula Hemetek "The Arvanites of Southern and Central Greece are frequently mentioned in the Greek travel literature of the 18th and 19th century. It seems that until then they had managed to maintain their language and culture very well. After the Independence of Greece in 1830, a strong assimilation process began that was promoted by the common orthodox religion." And Plamen K. Georgiev: "The ethnic composition of modern Greece today is made up of assimilated Albanians (Arvanites), Vlachs (Vlahous), Turks (Turkous) and Macedonians (Makethones). There was no pre-19th century Greek ethnicity. The Phanariots artificially created the Greek ethnicity with the assistance of the Great powers." What is the fuss aboutt, Alexikoua? What did Hellenization mean before the 19th century? DevilWearsBrioni (talk) 14:01, 13 January 2016 (UTC)

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5 million Albanians in Turkey??

Can someone clean this nonsense please. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.30.12.155 (talk) 19:29, 7 March 2016 (UTC)

"overwhelming" reason for conversion

As many sources make clear, the reasons for which Albanians converted to Islam are many and complex[3] [4] [5]. To highlight one of these reasons (because it makes Albanians look more "western"?) and highlight it in the lede is POV-pushing and is not going to fly. Athenean (talk) 06:59, 12 August 2016 (UTC)

Yes they are complex. I am well aware of that. I wrote up the Islam in Albania article and highlighted them in full. This is the lede of the article and not the body. Moreover conversions to Islam occurred mainly due to uprisings against the Turks during a specific time and due to those events. Athenean please acquaint yourself with the peer reviewed literature. I have heavily referenced the Islam in Albania article. I have placed Ramet in here as she sums up the situation for anyone to check and if this goes to any noticeboard i will say the same. I am also concerned by your comments such as "(because it makes Albanians look more "western"?)" showing your POV instead of engaging with the literature. lbanians became Muslim due overwhelmingly to those reasons. As one is aware being "Western" is a social construct. That the Orthodox church had no liturgy in Albanian making the scriptures not being understood or denied Orthodox Albanians the ability to eat food during a fast in Laberia or that Albanian Christians had to pay the Jizya are other reasons. Again these too also fall under the area of duress. If you want those highlighted too (since you placed Giakoumis, and i take you have read Giakoumis) then that's fine too. Those Albanians that embraced Islam out of free will where a smaller group(the elite) and that happened in the immediate aftermath of the Ottoman conquest. Again please read the peer reviewed sources and make your comments accordingly on those and not on whether Albanians are "Western". Thank you.Resnjari (talk) 07:10, 12 August 2016 (UTC)

If you're going to claim that this or that was the "overwhelming" reason for reason, you need multiple high-quality sources that say so. Not one that's cherry-picked. Ramet is not viewable online anyway, so I think I can be forgiven for not taking your word for it (on past experience). What you're doing is using a a single source that backs this POV and are aggressively pushing it, ignoring all the other sources. For example, Giakoumis, an equally good source gives 4 reasons for conversion, none of them "overwhelming. This is outrageous POV-pushing and is not going to fly. Athenean (talk) 07:21, 12 August 2016 (UTC)

"Are you implying that i have somehow fabricated Ramet ? Are you also implying that i have manipulated peer reviewed sources (even in the past)? And what does having Ramet in there have to do with sources not being able to be view online. Greek editors place Sakellarou all over the place and that is not accessible to most (and we are told to take their word for it). I am going to state this in clear terms. If you (or anyone else for that matter) think that i have in any way manipulated the source i suggest you take me to a noticeboard immediately. Wikipedia says that you can go to a library and check it out yourself (i encourage it too). If one cannot be bothered going to one and accessing the source that's not my problem. Not only have i gone out of MY way to place the source and page numbers i have also provided the inline for people to check and double check. As for past experiences, if you want to go there Athenean, there are a few examples on your part of source manipulation to highlight. Anyway, if you want me to place additional sources next to that sentence i am more than willing (and you should have said this in the first place and done this through the talk by pinging me and not gone on about issues of who or what is "Western" which has nothing to do with the matter). I thought that Ramet would be enough considering that the Islam in Albania article is now heavily referenced and Ramet does the job in a condensed way. However more sources don't hurt. Best.Resnjari (talk) 07:35, 12 August 2016 (UTC)

Let's look at Miranda Vickers for example: [6] Of all the Balkan peoples, the Albanians were the most willing to convert to Islam...whole villages renounced the religion of their forefathers for political advantage...The ability to possess a timar and avoid donating a precious son to the devshirme were but two of the many reasons...". No, definitely not duress brought about by excessive love of Europe. Nothing "overwhelming". Let's look at Giakoumis [7]: Four main reasons for the spread of Islam throughout Albania...first reason was consideration of social and political status...second reason was economic...Furthermore the illiteracy of the clergy and the attendant poverty of the church played a role in Islamization...Lastly, fear of the Ottoman conquerors constituted another reason. Funny, duress due to excessive love of Europe is not mentioned by either of these sources. So not only is your favorite reason not "overwhelming", but these two sources don't even mention it. And these are just two sources off the top of my head, there are LOTS more. This is outrageous POV-pushing of epidemic proportions. Athenean (talk) 08:03, 12 August 2016 (UTC)

Please stick to the sources, once again your personal POV is coming through with comments such as "duress due to excessive love of Europe". We are not discussing "love of Europe" whatever that means. Anyway you are right to a certain extent with Vickers but you ignored that in that same paragraph it also refers to central Albania. Vickers also says (p.17): "The majority of conversions took place in the lowlands, around the Shkumbi river, where direct Ottoman pressure could most easily be exerted." I have highlighted this in the Islam in Albania article using other and more in depth scholarship. That same Vickers on p. 17 adds also "Islamic pressure on the Christian population began to increase with the Russo-Ottoman wars of the eighteenth century and the accelerating decline of the Ottoman Empire. This resulted in a notable decline in the previous Ottoman policy of religious tolerance, as Islamic pressure on the Christian population intensified. The Russo-Ottoman war of 1768-74 almost led to the expulsion of the Ottoman administration from Europe, and the threat posed by this war encouraged the Porte to levy increased taxes on all Muslim subjects, whilst those who converted to Islam had their taxes lowered and were given grants of land.". Skendi says on page 11. "Islamic pressure on the Orthodox Christians started with the decline of the Ottoman Empire and the Russo-Turkish wars of the eighteenth century. The officials in the provinces were corrupt and wanted to enrich themselves at the expense of the population. The Christians were naturally more exposed to extortion and ill treatment, owing to the difficulties that lay in the way of obtaining redress at law, and some of them may have sought relief from their sufferings in a change of faith. In the Russo-Turkish war of 1768, when Alexis Orlov’s enterprise failed, the Ottomans made reprisals against the Orthodox Christians, whom they considered allies of Russia, and used pressure to convert them." Ramet says on "The Ottoman conquest between the end of the fourteenth century and the mid-fifteenth century introduced a third religion – Islam - but the Turks did not at first use force in its expansion, and it was only in the 1600s that large-scale conversion to Islam began – chiefly, at first, among Albanian Catholics."; p.204. "The Orthodox community enjoyed broad toleration at the hands of the Sublime Porte until the late eighteenth century."; p. 204. "In the late eighteenth century Russian agents began stirring up the Orthodox subjects of the Ottoman empire against the Sublime Porte. In the Russo-Turkish wars of 1768-74 and 1787-91 Orthodox Albanians rose against the Turks. In the course of the second revolt the "New Academy" in Voskopoje was destroyed (1789), and at the end of the second Russo-Turkish war more than a thousand Orthodox fled to Russia on Russian warships. As a result of these revolts, the Porte now applied force to Islamicize the Albanian Orthodox population, adding economic incentives to provide positive stimulus. In 1798 Ali Pasha of Janina led Ottoman forces against Christian believers assembled in their churches to celebrate Easter in the villages of Shen Vasil and Nivica e Bubarit. The bloodbath unleashed against these believers frightened Albanian Christians in other districts and inspired a new wave of mass conversions to Islam." and on page 210. "Then, in 1644, war broke out between Venice and the Ottoman empire. At the urging of the clergy, many Albanian Catholics sided with Venice. The Ottomans responded with severe repressions, which in turn drove many Catholics to embrace Islam (although a few elected to join the Orthodox Church instead)... Within the span of twenty-two years (1649-71) the number of Catholics in the diocese of Alessio fell by more than 50 percent, while in the diocese of Pulati (1634-71) the number of Catholics declined from more than 20,000 to just 4,045. In general, Albanian insurrections during the Ottoman-Venetian wars of 1644-69 resulted in stiff Ottoman reprisals against Catholics in northern Albania and significantly accelerated Islamization... In general, a pattern emerged. When the Ottoman empire was attacked by Catholic powers, local Catholics were pressured to convert, and when the attack on the Ottoman empire came from Orthodox Russia, the pressure was on local Orthodox to change faith. In some cases Islamization was only superficial, however, and in the nineteenth century many villages and some entire districts remained "crypto-Catholic" in spite of the adopting the externals of Islamic culture." You have also ignored parts of Giakoumis which provides context [8]. Here are a few additional exerts to the ones you have provided.: "During the first 150 years of Ottoman power in Albania there wwas no extensive Islamization such as that which occurred, for example, in Bosnia nor did Muslims settle in newly conquered lands"... "In the 15th century sixteen Albanian cities were almost completely Christian, among them Gjrokaster, Kanina, Kelcyre and Permet... In the 15th century converts to Islam chiefly from the old ruling class and the new class of timar holders, while from the 16th century onwards Islamizations won ground also over the peasantry"... "In the 18th century Islamization increased and a large number of inhabitants of Laberi, Filaites, Pogon and Kurvelesh converted. In 1739, twenty five villages in Thespriota were forced to convert to islam en masse. It also has been noted that conversions intensified after the wars of Russia with the Porte (1710-1711, 1768-1774, 1787-1792, 1806-1812)." And i too can in this regard provide many, many more as to use your words "sources off the top of my head, there are LOTS more. This is outrageous POV-pushing of epidemic proportions" (on your part). I still don't see how using overwhelmingly is an issue for the discussion in here. In the article it says no such thing and nor have i use such words there. Like i said if you think more needs to be added i am fine with that. If more sources need to be provided that's fine too. Best.Resnjari (talk) 09:01, 12 August 2016 (UTC)

We are deep in tl;dr territory here (as usual), but I think I see the problem now. We interpret "under duress" differently. To me, this implies violence, or the threat of violence. Yet, the sources you posted, in addition to the ones I did, make one thing clear: That the main reason for conversion was increased taxes on Christian subjects after rebellions occurred. If the Ottomans increase taxation and you convert to avoid that, that's not "under duress", but "for economic gain". Albanians were not converted at swordpoint, but were essentially bought off and incentivized by the Ottomans ("Convert to Islam and get Free Land and Goodies! Or stay Christian and we will tax the Bejesus out of you!"). All the sources agree on this. On the other hand Ramet makes it clear it clear that the various revolts had an effect on conversions in specific locations - you can't say that Albanians as a whole converted due to rebellions in favor of Venice and Russia. And even in those case, Ramet says the Albanians were incentivized into converting as opposed to being converted by force. The only evidence of violence in the sources you quote are the incidents at Nivica and Shen Vasil - a rather small area. So "under duress" is not an accurate description of what the sources say. "Incentivization through taxation" is what is going on here, not "under duress". Athenean (talk) 04:28, 13 August 2016 (UTC)

Look at what else Vickers wrote: "Among Albanians of Kosova there appears to have been a far greater readiness to accept Islam". So much for "under duress". So on the one hand you have Giakoumis who also says the Albanians in Albania and Epirus converted mainly for taxation, and Vickers saying that Kosovo Albanians did not convert under any "duress". Athenean (talk) 04:44, 13 August 2016 (UTC)

I'am ok with the current wording. The duress sentence though should be added in the article body as that situation occurred in northern and southern Albania (maybe some different wording, but Skendi, Ramet Lederer make reference that rebellions had a cost in the from of conversions on local Albanian speaking Christian peoples), separate to central Albania. The situation was highly tense, as in Orthodoxy there is what is referred to as neo-martyrs and the most famous Kosmas went around trying to make people not become Muslim. Please read and acquaint yourself with all the sources on this. I have placed much much material in the Islam in Albania page (and yes do look it up yourself.) Also additional info and sentence on Kosovo and Macedonia converting in the body too (yes in those two places -especially the latter- they became Muslim by outright choice as in Bosnia -See Dritan's Ergo chapter in that Schmitt book) all sources are linked for further reading in the Islam in Albania article. There is very little to nothing in this article about these events. Yet these events as Elsie as referred to shaped and made the Albanians of today. Odd that its absent considering there have been so many Albanian editors over the years. Very disappointing on their part. Also the language of the sources is enough to guide the discussion, no need for a continuation of phrases like this "Convert to Islam and get Free Land and Goodies! Or stay Christian and we will tax the Bejesus out of you!". English is my first language, i get the jist.Resnjari (talk) 14:42, 13 August 2016 (UTC)

Ok good, I'm glad you agree with the wording, although it would have been better if things hadn't reached this level of acrimony. In future things will be easier if you assume good faith on my part and follow WP:BRD. If you make a major (Bold) change and someone Reverts you, the thing to do is Discuss, not revert again. BRD, not BRR. BRD is specifically designed to avoid escalations of the sort that happened here. It would also help if you adopted a less condescending tone ("please acquaint yourself with the sources", "no need for a continuation of phrases like this..."). No one likes being lectured, it just needlessly irritates your interlocutors and makes it harder to reach a compromise. Now then, you are welcome to make additions about the details of the conversion in the body text. I suggest a sub-section of the "religion" section. Just please try to keep it from getting too long as this is an overview article. Actually, what would probably work best is if you proposed something here in the talkpage and we took it from there. As you may have noticed, a group of editors including myself have adopted such an approach over at Greco-Italian War and it's worked wonders. Athenean (talk) 04:50, 14 August 2016 (UTC)

Yeah i wish things hadn't reached that level too. What is said in your comment also applies to you. We conduct discussions on and only the sources and scholarship and use language based on that in Wikipedia. Nothing other, as then good faith becomes compromised and we waste time. I have been watching Greco-Italian War discussion and it took a while (due to many editors partaking) before that formula was applied of using the talk to properly improve the article. I have tried it in the Northern Epirus article and the discussion has reached hiatus with other editors no longer participating ??? As for this article i agree its an overview. Probably about four sentences (max five). One on Albania, probably one on Kosovo and Macedonia or a combined one and one on the Chams. For the other regions (Kosovo, though mainly Macedonia) i need to look into it. I only know stuff mainly for Albania after editing the Islam in Albania article for now and doing reading of that scope now will be a bit out of my way for a few months, unless you have stuff (Ergo's article is a good starting point in the book that has Giakoumis too). Best.Resnjari (talk) 11:22, 14 August 2016 (UTC)

Sounds good then. I leave it to you to draft something up since you seem to have much expertise in this area than me. No rush, no deadline, just whenever you're ready. Athenean (talk) 03:43, 15 August 2016 (UTC)

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Unlock request. Unreferenced claims of "ancient history"

The phrase "While the exonym Albania for the general region inhabited by the Albanians does hark back to Classical Antiquity ..." is misleading and is not based on any source. Excepting some nationalistic albanian texts, there is no serious source supporting that there was an ancient "Albania" inhabited by "Albanians". Even the overtly pro-Albanian author Robert Elsie, in his book "Early Albania" doesn't claim any ancient roots of Albanians. He says that "Much has been written and speculated about their origins, in particular by the Albanians themselves who are passionately interested in tracing their roots ... Despite this, nothing has been proven conclusively."Introduction. I request that this claim is deleted if not supported by serious sources. Thank you.--Skylax30 (talk) 16:17, 15 October 2016 (UTC)

ALBA

Is CELTIC word for color WHITE, it doesnt have any conection with ethnic group which called itself Shqipetare , its 2 different things. Albanians is foreign name fir this people not their own. So its funny. Also shqip language doesnt have any word conected with SEA, as we know illirians were famous seeman, so they cant be illirians AT ALL. This text is funny, and mostley made by daily politics...trash. In same time 70% of toponimes in todays Albania is slavic, 20% celtic and 10% hellenic, and in Kosovo its 100% slavic together with word "Kosovo" itself...— Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.245.171.166 (talk) 21:37, 13 November 2016 (UTC)

According to you, looks like all Albanologists are wrong. Well, term Albanians is not translation of term "Shqiptarët" but it comes from Illyrian tribe "Albanët" (BTW same as Deutschland - Germany). Hmm, and you may be right for some toponyms that are slavic, since territor where Albanians live have been occupied by Helens, Romans, Ottomans, Slavs, and yet, here we are, with an unique language and culture.--Liridon (talk) 12:58, 15 November 2016 (UTC)

To the IP address above, please read the article. The subsection (which i wrote based on peer reviewed scholarship) called Names of the Albanians is heavily referenced. Linguists connect the Alb part of the word with similar words among Indo-European languages for mountainous topography that also derive words such as Alps. Due to rhotacizisation, the from Alban became Arban from where the self appellation Arbnesh/Arberesh is derived. Now unless you have some kind of peer reviewed scholarship that challenges or brings something new to the fore, your comment is POV pushing. No need to recycle flawed commonplace opinions in the deep south or deep north of the Balkans about Albanians. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia meant to be based on scholarship and facts, otherwise without that foundation it would be just another version of Breibart.com, useless and garbage.Resnjari (talk) 20:05, 15 November 2016 (UTC)

To Resnjrari,

1. Alban: Saint. 3rd century ad, the first English martyr. He was beheaded by the Romans on the site on which St Alban's Abbey now stands, for admitting his conversion to Christianity. Feast day: June 17

2. Albāni: The Albans, the inhabitants of Alba Longa. Pertaining to the town of Alba, Alban: “exercitus,” Liv. 1, 28: “pax,” the peace between the Romans and Albans.

3. Alba: From Vulgar Latin alba, from Latin albus. ALBA, Gemma, unio, margarita, ab albedine et candore. Suidas : ἄλϐα, οἱ ἀμάργαροι. Quippe margaritarum dos omnis, ut ait Plinius Alba Fucentia or Fucentis, a town of the Marsi, and subsequently a Roman colony, situated on a lofty rock near the Lake Fucinus, and used by the Romans as a state prison. Alba Longa, the most ancient town in Latium, is said to have been built by Ascanius, and to have colonized Rome. It was called Longa from its stretching in a long line down the Alban Mount towards the Alban Lake. It was destroyed by Tullus Hostilius, and was never rebuilt; its inhabitants were removed to Rome. At a later time the surrounding country was studded with the splendid villas of the Roman aristocracy and emperors (e. g. Pompey's and Domitian's), each of which was called Albanum. Alba Pompeia, a town in Liguria, colonized by Pompeius Magnus , the birthplace of the emperor Pertinax.

4. Please have a look here to solve you grammatical issues and understand from where the word Alba derives from: http://ducange.enc.sorbonne.fr/ALBANIA.Othon I (talk) 15:15, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

Interesting Othon. Beyond that do those sources have anything to say about the relation of the word with Albanians ? In the names of Albanians sub section of the article, it is heavily referenced. Again this page is about Albanians, not Celts or something like that. Linguists have noted that the Alb part of the word in Albania/ns stems from a common Indo-European root from which other words like Alps come from and is related to mountain topography. Albanian after all is a Indo-European language, just like Celtic and others who have a common origin many thousands of years ago before they split (see: Proto-Indo-European homeland; Proto-Indo-European language.) The above IP posted his comment as POV and received a stern reply in return.Resnjari (talk) 02:52, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

You Actually agree with me with your comment "alb" and "alp" is the same thing. Means "white" in Latin, the Romans gave these names to the northern countries and t the ones that had snow-capped high mountains like Scotland which is called Alba/Albania as well. The difference between "alb" and "alp" phonetically might be a corruption in Old High German because in Old high German they were using "alp" instead of "alb" The name "Albania" is the Medieval Latin name that the western countries gave to the geographical location of Epirus Nova/Illyricum(Roman) or Theme of Dyrrachium(Byzantine) which was corresponding to the Angevin Kingdom of Albania the Charles of Naples created after the 4th Crusade. The name that Albanians or Skipetars call their country is Skiperia, correct me if I am wrong. It would help you if you had a good knowledge of Latin or German. Of course I do not support the nationalistic banter of the the IP and I am not saying that Albanians are not named Albanians. What I am saying is that the names "Albania", "Albus", "Alban", "Alb", "Alp" etc are of Latin origin. Othon I (talk) 10:24, 18 November 2016 (UTC)

That's all interesting and we can have that discussion on my or your talkpage. Those sources there that you cite only refer to different variations of words that have Alb in them where similar and somewhat differing meanings developed over time though with a common root origin. For this article the source must cite the connection between the word containing Alb and Albanians together and i placed one that did. Albanian is a Indo-European language and the source of of Alb which became Arb in Albanian is very old and of a origin that connects it to similar and very old words in other Indo-European languages. The IP which would have read the article still went and wrote what he did and he got a stern reply. Albanians called themselves Shqiptar for the past 2 to 3 hundred years because many became Muslim and Albanian speakers sought commonality based on language at that time as religious divides became complicated (see: Islamization of Albania. Hence Shqip (for language) which comes from the verb Shqipoj connoting to speak clearly/commonly from the Latin excipio which has a similar meaning replaced Arberesh/Arbenesh as a self appellation. Its all sourced.Resnjari (talk) 06:18, 19 November 2016 (UTC)

I understand where you coming from but you are slightly wrong here. You know the article is well sourced indeed and it us Attaliates and Komnene who actually are the first to refer to the two groups Albanoi and Arbanitai and they refer to them separately. The word arb could be of a Germanic (due to the Normans in Albania) origin because Arber in old High German and a bit in high German to this day it means "snow-capped mountain peak" e.g. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Großer_Arber., no wonder why Albania means the same too in Latin. Also, Arbereshe is still used by the Italians. What Ian interesting is that did Arbereshe use the appellations Gheg or Tosks? I haven't seen any source stating that. Maybe I have to search a bit more but I might fall into despair for not finding any. Oh well we can talk about it. It is fascinating to see the connection and the influences of many languages. Btw, please see the source number 7 for the connection between the Latin word and modern Albania. Best. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Othon I (talk • contribs) 11:12, 19 November 2016 (UTC)

Othon, i placed Noel in there who is to the point and is wp:reliable and wp:secondary and sums up the view amongst linguists on the word Alb in relation to Albanians. Yes i too take note that the word has many equivalents in other languages that are of a Indo-European origin and that they all have some kind of common ancestor when Indo-Europeans were a more cohesive group so many many thousands of years ago. The sources you are placing in here relate to the word though do not cite Albanians, just the Alb thing in general. The source needs to have Albanians and the Alb thing in one. Otherwise its wp:original research. As for appellations of Ghegs and Tosks, Labs and Chams, they are sub categories of Albanians according to ethno-cultural and dialectal regions and not all Albanians have placed a heavy importance to them in some areas. In communities in southern Greece for example one can find Arvanite people with the surnames like Liapis, Gegkas, Tsamis and Toskas, though none would call themselves a Tosk, Gheg, Lab or Cham. Differences amongst the Arberesh when they went to Italy were also noted there many centuries ago. Some villages are aware of differences (see: Nasse [9]). Among Greek speaking people you also have ethno-cultural and dialectal identities according to region: i.e Pontians, Cretans etc and its like that with us.Resnjari (talk) 17:46, 19 November 2016 (UTC)

My point is not what is the argument in the linguist community but the etymology of the word. Which is undoubtly Romance and not Albanian as Oxford and other lexicons say. Either way as the IP notes, very few places in Albania have Albanian names. Most of th places in Albania have Slavic names and Greek in the South and other, it is the fact that Albanians never had control of their lands before 1913 as Elsie states. You gave the IP a good explanation about it. Anyway, regarding the surname, this is your OR. Many people in Albania have surnames of Slavic, Turkish or Greek origin, do they identify as such? For example, my surname is of Italian origin, do I identify as such? The surname is something that someone else gave you at the old times .Like a nickname. Also, the identities have to do with Geographical location and then ethno-cultural. You have it wrong here. I assume it is same among Albanians. Anyway good to talk to you Resnrari. Have a good day. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Othon I (talk • contribs) 11:29, 20 November 2016 (UTC)

The view held within the linguistic community in relation to Albanians (or the word Albanian) is that is has an association with mountain topography and that it is of a common Indo-European origin from which words like Alps derive. I go by this and i cited that in the article. The scholarship must include Albanians and the word, not separate conjecture on the word itself and then linking it to Albanians. That is OR if you included something like that in the article. I acknowledge that Albania has a substantial amount of Albanian toponyms that originate from the Slavic. I am aware of Selishchev's work, and Ylli has updated and corrected much of that by covering bits missed and correcting a few others (see his two works [10]. Its in German and published by one of the universities over there). To say though that Albania lacks Albanian toponyms is also to overlook that Albanian toponyms exist throughout the land. They dominate more in some areas that others (same way as Slavic names dominated say most of northern Greece before the name changes). Enver did NOT change toponyms of villages unless they had a religious connotation (i.e: saints name= Shën .....) or the village names were where ethnic Macedonians live (the government reversed those changes a few years ago for the Macedonians). Also another comment you make is that Albanians never had control of their geographical living space. Albanians became Muslims and during Ali Pasha's time in the south and the Bushati dynasty up north Albanians wielded almost independent power over their domains. The Ottomans had to send large armies to reassert control much later. Elsie does point this out as do other historians. About surnames, you cited the matter of the Arberesh and them not using words like Tosk or Gheg. They did if you read Nasse (Geg even entered southern Italian dialects as a insult word). Likewise those distinctions of Tosk, Geg, Lab and Cham existed faintly for a few in surnames which are found in Greece and that was the point i was making for communties with the self appellation of Arberesh. In no way are (former) Orthodox Albanian speaking people (i.e: Arvanites) Albanians. To claim such a thing would be nationalism. Its like saying that in Turkey because there are still some Grecophone Muslims that somehow those people are not ethnic Turks but Greek somehow. Albanian speaking people exist today as Albanians because those that became Muslim charted that course and it is on that foundation that most Albanians exist today as Albanians (see: Islamization of Albania. Within Albania, its Orthodox component is small and has shrunk considerably after 1992 as many have migrated to Greece, identify as Northern Epirots, their children are now monolingual Greeks speakers (Nitsiakos is a good scholar work to read on this [11]) and they have a Greek outlook. As much as Albanians are in denial about this, Albanian identity is the preserve of mainly Muslim Albanian speaking people.Resnjari (talk) 12:41, 20 November 2016 (UTC)

The opening section

I don't think the lede needs to be so long, especially as it mainly talks about religious and political aspects that (both on Wikipedia and in general) tend to be overdiscussed with respect to Albanians. We have plenty of text elsewhere about this stuff-- just a sentence or two would suffice. --Yalens (talk) 21:37, 27 December 2016 (UTC)

Illyrians

Albanians are Illyrians according to historians and this includes some Thracian descent. --Dancing Drake (talk) 19:42, 10 November 2016 (UTC)

• Fine. Source it. Otherwise, it won't remain. Add that material again without a source and you will very likely be blocked, and further account creation will likely be blocked as well. You're not doing yourself any favors by edit warring it in.--Hammersoft (talk) 19:43, 10 November 2016 (UTC)

@hammersoft If albanians are not illyrian descent, then where do the come from? Today is easier than previously, slowly but things are changing and will change and the covers won't last by power or money as it used to. Search more, u have books online, findings, or if u r that serious and person of true history come and vusit places, :) Genetics, language, ancient authors, prove albanians are older than others (greeks etc) :) But the thing us political agenda for territories! AlbaBee (talk) 15:08, 1 January 2017 (UTC)

@hammersoft If albanians are not illyrian descent, then where do the come from? Today is easier than previously, slowly but things are changing and will change and the covers won't last by power or money as it used to. Search more, u have books online, findings, or if u r that serious and person of true history come and vusit places, :) Genetics, language, ancient authors, prove albanians are older than others (greeks etc) :) But the thing us political agenda for territories! AlbaBee (talk) 15:08, 1 January 2017 (UTC)

• "is" political agenda for territories! ' by the si called greeks and dlavs/ erbs today, actually u might be one if them.

AlbaBee (talk) 15:13, 1 January 2017 (UTC)

Origin

There should be sections of: "Prehistory" and "Origin" Why did u remove them?? I am new here, trying to see how stuff works on this website (remember it is just one among thousands, libraries, artefacts, etc worldwide) so u may edit how u like but thats not much gaining by, :)

AlbaBee (talk) 15:33, 2 January 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 13 April 2017

77.57.96.119 (talk) 13:56, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

How can Albanians be 8 Milion, when 5 Milion Albanians live in Turkey. This is an absolut scandal from you Wikipedia. 5 Milions live in Turkey, another 5 Milion live in Balkan and 1-2 Milion in Europe and America. So please when you want to be a serious site, then change this please.

Not done: Please read the note alongside the total population. JTP ^{(talk • contribs)} 14:11, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

Albanians within Yugoslavia underwent periods of discrimination

No sources for this section, this is Original research, and should be deleted. Albanians have higher priviledges under communists than Serbs on Kosovo, that's why durring 20th century (aside from Albanian Nazi occupation) Serbs migrated from Kosovo to other parts of Serbia.

This nonsense have to be deleted since there are no valid sources for it. And this: "During the First Balkan War of 1912–13, Serbia and Montenegro – after expelling the Ottoman forces in present-day Albania and Kosovo – committed numerous war crimes against the Albanian population, which were reported by the European, American and Serbian opposition press."

Are you f*** kidding me? from http://www.albanianhistory.net/texts20_1/AH1913_1.html page that doesn'ta ctually exist, written by some retard Leo Freundlich who collected so called "news papers" back in 1913?

What the fuck is this shit, seriously? Name one mosque or any cultural heritage that was Albanian on Kosovo? Yeah tehre are few mosques built from ruins (literaly same fucking bricks) of Orthodox Churches that was destroyed by Ottomans.

Seriously who write this propaganda bullshit? Oh, you want fucking sources? History repeats itself https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2EFFBpoOu4 , ok now find one example where Serbians burin mosques, just one? No you can't, people who write this bullshit should get their fingers cut off, seriously, youa re piece of shit, go fuck yourself i will not sign myself.

If so wish, you can play that game. There are multiple reasons why there is a large Albanian diaspora (not everyone left for just "economic reasons") from areas from the former Yugoslavia. There are plenty of sources. Just add a tag to the sentence. Wont be hard to cater for them with a simple google books search and addition of sources.Resnjari (talk) 18:12, 17 June 2017 (UTC)

There's no game, facts are simple, Albanians were not discriminated in Yugoslavia and tehre's no valid source for it, if they were discriminated, why teh fuck would they move TO Kosovo from Albania? They ahd their own newspapers, schools and all sort of shit they wouldn't have anywhere on fucking planet, this is pure bullishit propaganda. There are no sources = must be deleted, "guilty untill proven innocent" is not a standard anywhere, so it can't be on wikipedia either. According to the Ottomans themselves from 1400's after battle of Kosovo there was no mention of Albanians, mass migration of Albanians to Kosovo happened durring Balkan wars and WW's, and after occupation of Nazi Albania, after that, Tito to give example to Elmer Hodza and to keep "good relations" with Albania (actually he wanted Albania to join Yugoslavia as final aim) did forbid by fucking law (it's fucking public law you can read in fucking documents, not some obsecure blogs written by idiotic nationalists or some German "historians" who read news articles no one ever saw) for Serbs to come back for almost 50 years after WW2 ethnic cleanising of people who survived genocide of Albanian Nazis. In fact, Albanians would move away from Kosovo if they didn't had it much better than in Albania, from every single paycheck across whole Ex-YU people gave x% for developement of Kosovo autonomus region in Serbia, that's also an fact. Another fact is there's literaly 0 Albanian heritage in Kosovo, as I said, no monuments, nothing, only few Ottoman Mosques that were built on ruins of Serbian Orthodox Churches, often with same fucking bricks (well documented historical fact). So no, tehre are no vaalid sources, tehre could be only obsecure blogs written by complete idiots who know as much about Kosovo or region as I do about what lies beyond event horizon of the black hole. IF this propaganda article isn't protected, i would delete this bullshit, because it is nothing more but bullshit. There are tons of articles of drug clans and war criminals who "rule" on Kosovo now supported by US, ex terrorists from "KLA" I don't see that mentioned in Kosovo article. But, "No candle burned forever", this will end up the same.

And as i said, give one example of Serbs burning Mosques and destroying graves, you will find none, most Serbs run away from Albanian terror durring 20th century, in begining of 1900's, Serbians were still majority on Kosovo. On the otehr hand, tehre is clear evidence of over 100 Churches destroyed in last few decades, countless grave yards etc., I'm not sure you ahve an argument here. This propaganda shit have to be stopped, and will be stopped, unfortunately, no one pays for it to counter this shit.

Also, there's no mention of Albanian Nazi's genocide agains Serbs on wikipedia about Serbs, there's no mention of well documented exodus of Serbs from Kosovo durring 20th century durring Albanian low level terror. This page should be about Albanian people, not about pathetic political propaganda from some frustrated idiots who lack of their own history root on "victim myths" and other invented bullshit stories that have no root in reality. I see that most unscientific claims of Albanians being Illyrians, proto-Europeans and similar nonsense is removed, and instead linked to Illyrian Roman province where those false claims are fixed in most cases, that's step in right direction, less myths, more facts. About diaspora, otehr much larger ethinc groups of Region have much larger diaspora (for example Romanians, or even Serbs), that doesn't prove anything otehr than economic migration. This bullshit must be stopped. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.149.37.89 (talk) 20:09, 17 June 2017 (UTC)

Albanians were "never discriminated against", only the Serbs? The modern day Albanian-Serb conflict began in 1878 when Serbia expelled the sizable Albanian population from Toplica/Morava. Those incoming Albanian refugees where highly hostile to the Serb population in Kosovo. And so began the cycle of revenge and ethnic cleansing (see article: Expulsion of the Albanians 1877–1878.) Those Albanians that arrived gave Kosovo a higher Albanian majority. Indeed the Russians encouraged their Ottoman counterparts regarding that. You make some fascinating claims about Serbs never having burned down or damaged mosques or other Islamic heritage. During the Kosovo conflict a few hundred were destroyed outright with others damaged in 3 months. At the moment there is no article regarding the destruction of Albanian heritage in Kosovo, but its something the Albanian wikipedia project should address as academic sources exist such as the works of Andrew Herscher, Violence taking place: The architecture of the Kosovo conflict. Orthodox churches where indeed targeted after the refugees came back to many villages especially in Western Kosovo that were destroyed by the Serb army in Western Kosovo. In 2004 that bitterness was expressed again. I should also note that Islam is an indigenous religion of the Balkans, alongside other faiths such as Catholicism and Orthodoxy. On WW2 yes Serbs were expelled from Kosovo, many were interwar period colonists brought in by the monarchist Yugoslav regime to change the demographic balance, while making the situation unbearable that many Albanians left for Turkey (see: Albanians in Turkey). Also on Illyrians, whether Albanians are descended from them or not has neither been conclusively ruled out. One thing is for sure is that Albanians are Balkan locals and descend from ancient Paleo-Balkan peoples. Old theories like that of being from the Caucasus have been debunked. I can go on here. You need to back up some of your claims on migration. Some comments that you refer are very similar to positions i have come across in Serbian historiography, however like its Albanian and other Balkan historiographical counterparts (Greek, Macedonian, etc) it is often based on nationalism and one must be wary (have a read of the Albanian Nationalism, Albanian historiography articles too). Anyway either you are going to tag what needs to be tagged in the article so other editors know what to address, or its the end of this dialogue, here.Resnjari (talk) 06:58, 18 June 2017 (UTC)

Yeah, in Ex-YU they were promoted and paid for by whole EX-YU, if they were discriminated anytime in history, it wasn't durring Yugoslavia, link to another propaganda article that cite Frederick again..., aside from that one year of actual fucking war where Albanians served in Ottoman army (at least majority, some of them did served in Serbian army against Ottomans, but those are very few if any), we are talking about YUGOSLAVIA, not fucking war against Ottoman Empire. Who the fuck is Andrew Herscher? How is he any reputable historian, he is US historian who have no clue about anyything, let alone region, so we will go that low in here and cite some ignoramus who is in delusion of being something? No, I don't think so. The point of fucking including "that expled that" in article about fucking people to push some political propaganda is outrageous, especially when propaganda is mostly baseless. There's literaly no Albanian heritage on Kosovo, it's black bird feild, being Serbian for millenium, there's no mosque that was destroyed by serbs, there were few that was destroyed by KLA terrorist organization itself, and few that were damaged in conflict, those are mainly Ottoman built ones by bricks of ruined Orthodox Churches, its's simple historical fact you can't twist no matter how hard you try. I already gave you ONE youtube video proving my claims among tons of others thata re freely available online, you can't find one proving yours, so, "innocent untill proven guilty" must be applied if you want to go down the path of ruining page of your people and their own repitation that is already very low for political bullshit on wikipedia, be my guest. On Illyrians, genetic studies are quite conclusive, most of the "Proto-European" haplogroups is among Bosnian ~50% (both Muslim and Orthodox Serbs, some might call them Bosniaks = Serbs with Muslim religion taken durring Ottoman times, even last names stayed Serbian... off topic), then Serbian ~40%, then Romanian ~30-40%, then Bulgarian and Macedonian ~20% and then by Albanian 10-15% (up to 20% on Kosovo due to the natiral genetic mixing that happened all over the region, invluding Albania ofcourse), so according to genetics, it is disproven already, according to linguistics it's quite obvious. Aside from that "Illyrians" do NOT EXIST, "Illyria" was province of Roman Empire, it is simple name for geographical region that clueless Romans gave to it, it is that simple, it's region like Kosovo, Sumadija or any other region, not country or population. My comments are based on historical facts and actual evidence, not on nationalistic or any other base. I am simply tired of this bullshit propaganda, and I am even more tired of the fact that Albanians gain support by world powers in falsifying historical facts since 1900's and/or after Berlin congress (that's why so meny German so called "sources"), considering this whole region in order to gain geo-political goals where Serbs as only real opposing force that can prevent it are marked as "evil". This however, will not last forever, so it is in your best interest to start talking with facts, because peace comes only from the truth, propaganda will promote violence, and you might as well get self-fulfilling propercy of genocide. Now udner US rule Kosovo is drug hub for Europe, all mining complexes (such as Trepca) are not in Albanian hands, but in US hands, and living standard dropped by more than 200% (pay to buy ratio), and that is much better than when you were oppressed in Yugoslavia by evil Serbs while having schools, papers and everything on your own language, sure... Oh,a nd why don't you investigate DE radiation there now? My response might be emotional (not nationalistic) but that is because I'm tired of this bullshit on wikipedia, spewing CIA propaganda all over it. "Racak masacre" that was proven false, is still on wikipedia as "factual", despite the fact it was CIA project to start aggression on Yugoslavia (Serbia and Montenegro at the time), and despite the fact that tehre's a page with all "war crimes" in "Kosovo war" that wasn't really a war, if Serbs really wanted it, they could enter with military in 1998 when anti-terrorist action started, and instead of targeting terrorists only and dying themselves to sve lifes of civilians, they could simply do real masacres and flatten whole Kosovo with the ground in one week, but they didn't. KLA was terrorist organization supported from North Albanian region that was under control of US,a nd even outsoude of Albanian gov. control, Whestly Clark himself visited that area, and US and other NATO member trained KLA and gave them weapons from other wars, those weapons were light artilery and was no treat to any serious army, so in real war, they standed no chance. One person I know was in special operations where brigade of 20 people killed well over 100 KLA terrorists, that's how porly trained they were, while having only one wounded in their brigade. So calling that "war" is misleading to begin with, it was not a war, it was anti-terrorist operation, yet, it's still called "Kosovo war", even durring NATO aggression, with air support, small groups of terrorists simply counldn't do anything but attacking civilians (both Albanian and Serbian).

Some articles on Wikipedia have their issues and others don't. Wikipedia policy on that is located at wp:reliable and wp:secondary. I made my comments accordingly in the previous post. An addition of sorts. Herscher is a scholar who did fieldwork in Kosovo right after the war and worked with he UN compiling material of damaged buildings. In his scholarly work he examines both the destruction of Orthodox Serbian heritage alongside Muslim Albanian heritage. Andras Riedlmayer is also another scholar who worked in a similar capacity to Herscher and has also published on those issues. My point about having an Albanian page is as there is a Serbian one covering the destruction of one heritage and not the other. On the KLA being "terrorists" that is subject to interpretation the same way that one could say that Milosevic's regime induced state terror. Interpreting what is terror or a liberation struggle is often subjective to geopolitics. Anyway, you brought up an issue. Place a tag or tags in the article so the matter can be addressed by editors to know what needs doing to place appropriate citations from reliable scholarship.Resnjari (talk) 13:03, 18 June 2017 (UTC)

Andrew Herscher was speaking about "Conflict in Kosovo", and that is proper name for it, not war, he is ordinary asistant, so he can't be taken as expert, but i guess wikipedia does not care on viewpoints. My point is, that Page about serbian people (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbs) does not mention Any war crimes Albanians commited against Serbs, it breefly mention Albania 4 times on whole page, once in terms of geography of Kingdom of Serbia (or Serbian Empire later), once in withdrawal over Albania during WW1, once in demography (numbers in Albania) and last for Albanians seeking independence, where it was named properly as "conflict" that did errupted in real war between Serbian Army and NATO, linking to wrongly named article "Kosovo_War", while you can argue that it was a war during 78 days of aggression (wrongly named bombing), it should, for the sake of factual accuracy, called "conflict". So that's my point, you have one sided, biased views with quite a bit of propaganda pushing, you can either include all sides from all sources, or simply remove propaganda as it was done on page about Serbs, since it is about people, not about history (there are separate articles about it). ON terrorist topic, KLA was listed as terrorist organization by US untill 1997, when they already had plans ready to attack Serbia, so i guess 1+ year in advance would be enough for dumb public to think that is coincidance. There are countless testemonies of actual Albanians whos family members were killed by KLA, just because they did not wanted to spread conflict, or were in good relations to their Serbian neighbors, if that is not definition of terrorist organization (killing for wrong opinion) I don't know what is. Milosevic was actually freed of all charges recently, even tho it was ilegitimate anti-Serbian tribunal in Hague, theys till couldn't find evidence for the claim you presented here, and that was long process untill he got killed in his jail cell by purposly giving him bad medication at best. I gave my case, it is clearly up to you and whoever have rights to edit this page since it's locked. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.149.37.89 (talk) 16:20, 18 June 2017 (UTC)

The article is locked due to editors with IP addresses coming and making multiple edits and running amuck in past times. Its being locked does in no way make the article be the preserve of a few. Create an account and then you will be able to edit. Its free. Anyway when Herscher was working for the UN, yes he was an assistant, it was him or Riedlmayer who placed their PHD dissertations on hold to do that work. Both now are academics in their own right and have used their past experiences and data to compile their academic works on heritage destruction. Even though it was a war situation Muslim religious monuments where deliberately targeted as they were seen as part of the Albanian presence in Kosovo. On the Serbian people page, i have not edited it and mainly Serb editors have over time, take it up with them on the talk over there. Like i said create an account and you will be heard in a serious manner. Editing with just an IP address wont get you far, as many a time they are viewed as disruptive. Also avoid certain expletives as your endevours will be viewed as POV and then you will sanctioned limiting your abilities as an editor in future. On the Kosovo War each side had their own goals. With Albanians, self preservation. With Serbs, territorial preservation. Each attempted to co-opt great powers. Both peoples became part of the proxy war between the USA and Russia and behind the scences was not about humanitarianism. If you want to read a book without the "bullshit", a good scholarly work is by John Norris, (2005) Collision Course: NATO, Russia, and Kosovo [12]. The KLA emerged as Rugova's pacifist stance collapsed among the Albanian youth and that armed group used tried and tested Balkan tactics of getting a great power on ones side to fight battles (Serbs made use of that in the 19th century with Russia). Milosevic misread the international situation and miscalculated Russian power and assistance in the 1990s while escalating the situation by targeting civilians to get to KLA types. He could have struck a deal with Rugova right after Dayton and today Kosovo would have been part of that state. But that is the gift of hindsight and things went another way.Resnjari (talk) 17:10, 18 June 2017 (UTC)

OK, I already gave my opinion about him, the fact is, he might got his PhD because at teh time, whoever demonized Serbs did advanced... Rugova and Milosevic actually had a deal, that however wasn't good for criminals on both sides, you can hate Milosevic as much as you want, the fact is, he wasn't nationalist, and he's freed of all charges in very Anti-Serbian tribunal. In fact that is complete fabrication that Albanian civilians were diliberatly targeted by special operation forces, I personally know people who were there as part of special forces, they know very well what they did, and they are decent people who would enver do such things. However, KLA group, and other criminal groups from Albanian and Serbian side did do those things, but those war criminals are processed in Serbia, same can't be stated for Albanian side, because interests of those groups are shared with current occupying force on Kosovo, and if those are charged, then, by chain reaction, those responsible for some things outside of region could be charged, that's why France didn't extradise Haradinaj, probably from order froma nother continent, but i will not speculate. The articles about Kosovo conflict, and other wars and conflicts in ex-YU on wikipedia use "CNN/BBC" narative bias, where Serbs are compared to Nazis..., and otehrs to Jews, that comparison is extremely insulting, because it have no ground in reality. As an result, I will not waste my time on wikipedia trying to beat that narative, it will beat itself at the end. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.149.37.89 (talk) 18:47, 18 June 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 20 June 2017

The number of citizens in Albania is listed as a little bit more than 2 million. The CIA article it cites from 2016 says more than 3 million. Please double check Freeman292 (talk) 15:09, 20 June 2017 (UTC)

Done The source links now to 2016 figures, so the populations of Albania and Kosovo are now updated to reflect the sources. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 18:55, 20 June 2017 (UTC)

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