Talk:2021 Jersey dispute

Year in title

There isn't any Jersey dispute (Redirect right now), so should the article be moved to it instead of having it be 2021 Jersey dispute? Elijahandskip (talk) 12:23, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

IMO Jersey Dispute is too general. The island was contested dozens of times in history. Most of which can be described as a dispute. Current redirect helps readers find the ongoing event, which is what most will be looking for a few days. Ecrusized (talk) 13:08, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

At the moment the title follows a pattern established in a previous dispute that seems to lack a formal name, the 1993 Cherbourg incident. I agree that the title will need to change in time as a name comes into widespread use, as happened with the Cod Wars, Lobster War, Turbot War and the English Channel scallop fishing dispute aka 'Great Scallop War'. A name may already be emerging - the Times referred to it as 'the war of the whelks' in an article by a French correspondent on 9 May and again on 12 May, the Jersey Evening Post used that name in three places on 15 May (The Weekend Essay Aftermath of the War of the Whelks [page 1], events dubbed by some as the War of the Whelks [page 12-13], and in a double page spread titled "Restoring relations after the 'War of the Whelks'" [page 18-19]). Bailiwick Express called it that on 18 May. Curb Safe Charmer (talk) 09:36, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

A common name is emerging from BBC News, Channel Four news, The Guardian, Independent, The Irish Times, LBC News, The Scotsman, Sky News, The Telegraph - they all call it the Jersey fishing row. -- DeFacto (talk). 12:33, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

References

French Patrol Boats Drafts

A notice to editors that Draft:Athos (A712) & Draft:Le Themis have been started. Feel free to help improve them. Elijahandskip (talk) 14:17, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

Noting that Athos (A712) was created by a person and the draft above is being speedy deleted. (Article was created after draft existed). Elijahandskip (talk) 17:37, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

Infobox

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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@GameEnd and Anvib: I think the use of an the 'Infobox military conflict' infobox is more trouble than it is worth, and could be inflammatory. This is clearly not a military conflict. The presence of military vessels was for peacekeeping only. Can we scrap the box? Curb Safe Charmer (talk) 17:34, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

I agree, this appears to be a civil conflict between the government of Jersey and civilian fishing vessels which could be from anywhere. Anvib (talk) 17:40, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

I second that. GameEnd (talk) 17:46, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

@Curb Safe Charmer, Anvib, and GameEnd: I disagree. This is not at all civil conflict IMO. It may have started as one but now the military vessels of Britain and France are involved, while the Government of France is threatening to cut off the islands electricity. Which is not a civil institution. Cod Wars which is a similar dispute also uses infobox military conflict. Ecrusized (talk) 18:15, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

To gain a larger consensus about the dispute, I have created a notice at WP:NPOVN inviting feedback from uninvolved editors. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 19:33, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

Thanks ToBeFree. @Ecrusized: there is zero chance of military intervention between the UK and its nearest neighbour and close ally. The presence of patrol vessels in a peacekeeping role is at the most political posturing at a time of elections in the UK. The Independent has reported that the two Royal Navy vessels have been stood down. MarineTraffic shows HMS Tamar leaving the area. As a civil dispute infobox exists, this should be used instead. Curb Safe Charmer (talk) 20:42, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

I still don't think it was a "civil" dispute. Sure it wasn't bloody and in sense civil, but it wasn't a dispute involving civilian sides. It being over doesn't change this. Ecrusized (talk) 20:48, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

The term "military conflict" is only used in the code of the infobox, which the readers don't see anyway. However the civilian infobox calls the sides civilians, while they are not. Ecrusized (talk) 20:50, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

@Ecrusized: Surely you would define the protagonists - the French fishermen - as civilians? And aren't the Jersey politicians and civil servants who granted, or withheld, the fishing licences also civilians, under any definition used here? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Curb Safe Charmer (talk • contribs) 11:23, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

• We really need a template {{teapot tempest}}. Guy (help! - typo?) 23:04, 8 May 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Jersey is not part of the UK

@Nice4What: I saw that you'd tagged "While Jersey is not part of the UK" with the 'clarify' tag. What did you have in mind? Jersey's relationship with the UK is described in both the Jersey article and Politics of Jersey#Relations with the United Kingdom. Would a wikilink from the statement to the latter suffice? Curb Safe Charmer (talk) 06:21, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

It is not so clear: Jersey is impacted by Brexit and British ministers make comments on the topic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.136.215.10 (talk • contribs) 11:48, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

Background to Jersey-France relations

Hello DeFacto. I saw that in this edit you removed the section entitled 'Normal relations between Jersey and the neighbouring French coastal towns' which I had been writing, with the edit summary 'unrelated to the dispute'. This background is relevant to the dispute because it sets the scene for the dispute and introduces subjects such as the Maison de Normandie (Normandy's representative office in Jersey) which was shut as one of France's reactions to the dispute. It establishes the proximity of the ports, which enables the reader to understand why Jersey's waters are important to the French. It illustrates the trade that takes place between the island and France, and the convivial relationship. The section is key to broadening the subject from just being about the goings on of 5 and 6 May. Curb Safe Charmer (talk) 19:59, 18 May 2021 (UTC)

Curb Safe Charmer, you boldly added the content and per WP:BRD I deleted it, with a reason, pending consensus. You then reinstated your bold addition stating per BRD! That's not how it works. Please restore the status quo verion and wait to see if you get a consensus to add all that. Personally, I cannot see the relevance. -- DeFacto (talk). 06:51, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

@DeFacto: My additions to the article and moving existing content into a section was not a bold edit, it was normal editing. I believe it was your edit that was boldly done: your action was not a revert as it did not restore the article back to the state it was at before the edits that you were concerned about were made. Instead, what you did was content removal on the basis of irrelevant information. Per WP:IRRELEVANT, there is clearly some relevance of the content, and if you felt it was not sufficiently relevant then it should be discussed on the talk page. Curb Safe Charmer (talk) 07:52, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

Curb Safe Charmer, it was you who originally changed the article, all I did was revert your change. You now need to get consensus to restore your additions - that's how WP:BRD and Wiki collegiality works. -- DeFacto (talk). 08:15, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

@DeFacto: if it was a revert, it would show as such in the edit history. You'd be able to show the version that you reverted the article to. No, what you did was boldly delete content. That is different. Curb Safe Charmer (talk) 08:20, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

Curb Safe Charmer, see Wikipedia:Reverting. -- DeFacto (talk). 08:31, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

Notice about a new WikiProject Proposal

Hey editors of the 2021 Jersey dispute article. I recently proposed an idea for a WikiProject for 2021. This dispute started in 2021, and the proposed WikiProject is dedicated to 2021 articles, so this article would be an important article for the WikiProject, since it was nominated for ITN. So I thought I would drop by and let you know about the proposal. Feel free to drop your opinions here: Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals/2021. Elijahandskip (talk) 20:08, 18 May 2021 (UTC)

"Jersey Wiki" listed at Redirects for discussion

A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Jersey Wiki. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 May 21#Jersey Wiki until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 18:22, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:2021 Jersey dispute/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: The Rambling Man (talk · contribs) 18:58, 26 May 2021 (UTC)

• "The 2021 Jersey dispute is a dispute..." yuck. I think this is a good candidate for not forcing the name of the article into the opening sentence.  Done fixed by Buidhe.
• "part of the UK the" comma after UK. Done
• I would call UK as United Kingdom at least the first time. Done
• One ref in the lead? Odd, either ref the lot or none of it (preferred) and make sure everything in the lead is mentioned in the main body of the article and referenced there. Done
• The lead ends and we're kind of left guessing what's happening now or what the conclusion was? Done
• "Jersey is a Crown dependency" was a capital D before. Done
• That first para is unreferenced.  Done
• Link Breton. Done
• ""from St Helier, and" where is that? Link? Done
• " Saint Malo " our article hyphenates this. Done
• This description is crying out for a map... (instead of some people playing petanque perhaps...) Agree Will take a little while to produce some original artwork as nothing on Commons quite fits the bill. ω Awaiting

  Update: I have made a request at the map workshop to see if someone is willing to create the map rather than me doing it.

• Image captions which are complete sentences should have a full stop. Done
• "up to three miles from" nautical ones? Conversion... Done
• "of the Bailiwick of" why is that a capital B?

  "Bailiwick of Jersey" is the full legal name for the island of Jersey and its associated reefs; I didn't wikilink Bailiwick of Jersey here as that's just a redirect to Jersey; it is more useful to link the term 'bailiwick' as that article explains the meaning of the term.

• "belonging or controlled by anyone" belonging to or ...  Done
• "but it was inadequate for modern fishing practices" why? Done
• " Lieutenant-Governor of Jersey" no hyphen according to our article. Done
• "between three and twelve nautical miles off" conversions. Done
• ""agreement.[17][13]" ref order. Done
• "After the UK left the EU in 2020..." this para is unreferenced. Done
• Ref 19 doesn't cite that whole para.  Done
• "up until the eleventh hour" bit journalese, just stick with neutral tone. Done
• "The TCA initially only..." this para is unreferenced. Done

There's a lot to do here. I'll pause my review at this point while we see how you get on with these issues, and preferably apply their essence across the rest of the article, particularly with regard to referencing. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 20:18, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

@The Rambling Man: Thanks for your time reviewing this and your useful comments. I've started work on these improvements, and I'm tracking progress above. Curb Safe Charmer (talk) 14:28, 5 June 2021 (UTC)

Ok, let me know when you think you're ready to move on to the next set of comments. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 23:34, 5 June 2021 (UTC)

Are we ready? The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 09:38, 23 June 2021 (UTC)

Been open around a month now, any progress? The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 09:20, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

@The Rambling Man: There was no ping and I didn't see your message until just now. I didn't realise that I'd need to add the GA review page to my watchlist separately to the transclusion on the article talk page - I have done so now. There are two statements is one statement that I need to find references for, but those aside, it would be great if you could continue your review. Curb Safe Charmer (talk) 16:34, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

• "TCA says that" the quote marks shouldn't be in italics. In both instances. And any other such quotes.  Done
• Virginijus Sinkevičius has a missing diacritic.  Done
• "over 12 metres" onvert. And consider "more than 12 metres (39 ft) in length".  Done
• "amendments[30] to the Sea Fisheries (Jersey) Law 1994[31] and" awkward, jarring ref placement, can happily all be placed at the end of the sentence.  Done
• ""boats operating in its waters" unref'ed.

  Now that the two references moved to avoid the jarring ref placement are at the end of the sentence it is no longer unreferenced. Are you content as it now is?

• "with a further 14 pending" as of when?  Done it was as of the date mentioned earlier in that sentence, which I have now made clearer
• "Only three Jersey..." as of when?  Done the source does not say but I have added as of the date of the source and of this press release
• "were granted licences" did this happen automatically or did they have to apply for the licence? And if the latter, how many did?

  There's an application form on the GOV.UK website but I don't want to stray into original research. I don't know if more applied than were granted licences.

• "therefore had no effect..." do you mean could/would not be enforced?

  I remember other sources using the words 'null and void'. I can find those if you think it helps?

• "It complained at how ..." unref.  Done
• Sénatrice what's that?

  Sénatrice is the title of a female member of the French senate. As that article says 'it is made up of 348 Senators (sénateurs and sénatrices)'. I thought it useful to use the term to distinguish between the Jersey senators and the French senators.

• "In protest at the system..." unref.  Done
• Suddenly quotes are not in italics. If it was me, I'd un-italicise all quotes.  Done per MOS:NOITALQUOTE
• "the twelve mile limit" convert.  Done
• "MV Commodore Goodwill " MV is not italicised.  Done fixed per WP:SHIPPREFIX
• "protest - a speedboat" en-dash.  Done
• "11:40am" non-breaking space before am.  Done
• "around 2pm" likewise.  Done
• "ports of Carteret" - is that the same as Barneville-Carteret?

  The Port of Carteret is the correct name for the port within the commune - see Barneville-Carteret#Port of Carteret

• "the Manche government" what is that?

  See Manche#Politics

That's taken me to the Reactions section. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 09:33, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

@The Rambling Man: Assuming you are comfortable with my responses above, I think we're good to continue with the next section(s). Thanks for your time on this. Curb Safe Charmer (talk) 16:46, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

• "lack of understanding and discontent" probably better the other way around in case "lack of ... discontent" is read.  Done
• "use... retaliatory" non-breaking space before the ellipsis.  Done
• "defence secretary" not linked, but other government posts appear to be linked. What's the strategy?  Done
• "UK Government said that" more like they "released a statement to the effect that"  Done
• "the British Government by" you previously called this the UK Government, and didn't link it...  Done changed British to United Kingdom for consistency
• "However on 12 May Girardin" -> "However, on 12 May, Girardin"  Done
• "a 16 metre French" convert, adjective.  Done
• "Norman Le Brocq intercepted the fishing boat, and its skipper" which "its"? Unclear in the current sentence structure.  Done
• Is there a reason there are three useful sources in "Further reading" rather than them being used in the article?  Done I have moved one of them to the list of potential sources on the talk page
• Be consistent with referencing, e.g. add access-dates to all online sources, not to just some of them.  Done
• Date formats in references should be consistent as well.  Done
• Fr24 looks like a dab link.  Done
• Several spaced hyphens, should be spaced en-dashes.  Done
• Same question applies to some of the external links as I asked about the Further reading section, one or two of those look like they can be used inline.  Done I have moved one of them to the list of potential sources on the talk page; the others I believe do belong as external links

That's it on a first pass. When it's all done and the unresolved issues from previous review segments are handled, drop me a line and I'll take another look from the top. Cheers. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 09:20, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

@The Rambling Man: this batch of issues have been addressed. It would be great if you could do a final review of the overall article when you have time. Thanks. Curb Safe Charmer (talk) 19:35, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

I'm still seeing the odd unreferenced sentence in there. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 12:28, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

Curb Safe Charmer I left this note a month back... any progress? The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 16:13, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

@The Rambling Man: There had been one CN tag which I had added after your first review but forgot to address - this was fixed on 9 August. I saw the two CNs you added on 13 August and addressed those just now. I think everything that needs a reference has one. Curb Safe Charmer (talk) 08:06, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Status query

The Rambling Man, Curb Safe Charmer, where does this nomination stand? It looks like Curb Safe Charmer made a number of edits on 16 August; is there anything left to do on their part? Thank you very much. BlueMoonset (talk) 01:16, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

It's still in progress. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 07:52, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

Ok, look forward to seeing the map, but promoting as other issues resolved. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 18:18, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

@The Rambling Man: Thanks for your time spent on this review. The article is much better for it. Curb Safe Charmer (talk) 11:52, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, you're welcome. All good things come to those who wait! Cheers. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 12:02, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

Brexit sidebar

@Curb Safe Charmer: @The Rambling Man: I added a link to this dispute to the {{Brexit sidebar}} template, do you think it'd be helpful to add the sidebar to this article, or is it unnecessary? Your call! Jr8825 • Talk 07:56, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

@Jr8825: thanks. The dispute is a result of Brexit, and the article discusses topics like the withdrawal agreement and the TCA so it seems appropriate, so I've gone ahead and added it. Curb Safe Charmer (talk) 16:44, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

Status as of 2022

Is the dispute ongoing? If it is, then the article should be changed to 2021–2022 Jersey dispute? --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 21:23, 2 January 2022 (UTC)

@WikiCleanerMan: While more licences for French boats have been granted, the French are not yet satisfied and talks are ongoing. However I suggest we wait and see what happens in early 2022. If the dispute simmers quietly, it could remain the 2021 dispute, but if there is another major flare-up such as a blockade then yes, it should be renamed. Curb Safe Charmer (talk) 13:55, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

Curb Safe Charmer, one year later, I found this article that states that an agreement was reached in April of last year. UK and France reach truce over fishing licence dispute. Maybe add 2022 to the title. --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 22:12, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

@WikiCleanerMan: While things are certainly more amicable, this is not yet the end of the story, as this recent news piece shows. Curb Safe Charmer (talk) 22:24, 3 January 2023 (UTC)