Talk:Ông Trời

Same Deity

This article is very weird and tries to push the idea that Ông Trời and the Jade Emperor are somehow different deities when everything in this article points to the opposite.

From calling him Ông Trời/Ông Thiên (a calque of 天公),

to being married to the Queen Mother of the West,

to creating humans from clay and drying them in the sun and rain deforming some,

to being literally referred to as "玉皇".

This article claims that Ông Trời was once a "Vietnamese" god unrelated to the Jade emperor. However, the article gives no further information about this.

In essence, this article appears redundant and should probably be cleaned up and merged with the Jade Emperor article as a subsection with a header like "Worship of the Jade Emperor in other countries/Vietnam". 范俊華 (talk) 21:43, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

it just very confusing, 范俊華 was right to saying that this wiki make claims that Ông Trời was once a "Vietnamese" god unrelated to the Jade emperor. But there are not any information. Copypasting Jade emperors information is not very useful. Tried to thought them as different, but then failed， when t this page have noting to offer and from english reference finding nothing. Getting heavily mislead by pagecreator. 2001:999:504:88DF:A0F9:B4FF:FEB8:AC1F (talk) 20:37, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

I also think they should be separated, because later it just look like using the image and elemets when it "identified" as Jade Emperor. Looks more like that have been replaced by a foreign religion by using name Jade emperor 玉帝 not Ông Trời

2001:999:504:88DF:28D0:D6FF:FE2B:33E1 (talk) 01:38, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

Ông Trời is more like to meaning sky, not same as Jade emperor from the citations. Ông Trời doesnt have involved so much as ancient figure. And that part that meantion in english citations, there was not meantion that Jade emperor is same as Ông Trời. Just meantion Ngọc Hoàng which is Jade emperor So this page is very unnecessaty. And

kinda misleading. In English wikipefia should use english reference and reliable source and most of this page isnt. And taken and chosen part to make it see reliable. 2001:999:504:88DF:28D0:D6FF:FE2B:33E1 (talk) 01:42, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

and Ngọc Hoàng (玉皇) and all those Jade emperors names is refer to the Jade Emperor rather than Ông Trời in Vietnam. 2001:999:504:88DF:28D0:D6FF:FE2B:33E1 (talk) 01:44, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

interesting analysis of the topic. do you have sources for these factual assertions?

curious, Augmented Seventh (talk) 01:57, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

That part using Oxford Companion to World Mythology that as source p394 describe Jade emperor as Ngọc Hoàng as vietnamese version. And then meantion some time supreme deity is Ông Trời, sky lord the sky itself.2001:999:504:88DF:28D0:D6FF:FE2B:33E1 (talk) 02:25, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

Here they are treated more as separate deities. And the account who created this page and those who try to edit the information like remove chunom and chuhan are banned and they doesnt seem like neutral editors. And since most of the references are not in English and it doesn't even have a Vietnamese version of this topic in wiki. This wiki just looks like the conclusions made by the editors as primary source and source are unverified content, only Oford Companion to World Mythology is usable.

. 2001:999:504:88DF:28D0:D6FF:FE2B:33E1 (talk) 02:57, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

And Jade emperor have it own page in vietnamese wiki. Like this user said those part in this wiki origin is Ngọc Hoàng related, like been married to the Queen Mother of the West, Côn Lôn mountain ( Cunlun mountain).

In wiki also have part as he was frequently identified with Śakra in names, having no english sources. And all of those gods have own origin and mytologies. It looks more like been replaced by those in appearence, elements.

When traditionally there is no iconography of Ông Trời or Ông Thiên—altars dedicated to him are usually just outdoors and represented by an incense pot. So in this wiki using so much of Jade emperor figures and pictures seems unaccurate. And I did researched that there are similar word in China, "Lord Heaven" and "Jade Emperor" were terms for a supreme deity in Confucianism and Taoism who have anthropomorphized Tian(天) from Chinese theology. Jade emperor using also words 老天、老天爷、天主 which are translated directly as old father sky, skylord, and can be use as *Oh my god" in english. In vietnam there are translation word for this, Thiên (天) not Ông Trời 翁. So it shouldnt perhaps treat as one? and it doesnt seems accurate to use Ngọc Hoàng related stuff as Ông Trời origin. They share similar meaning to represent heaven/sky or supreme god, like in many countries and religion have. But Ông Trời is maybe more native and Jade emperor is more from Thiên (天) from taoism.

Now there are not many research, person who started this and keep editing are accounts of sockpuppet by Taolabomay, Using more than one administrator account. Conclusion mostly done by this one person. And now looks like be this very limited research of the subject.

Page is more information about the Jade Emperor in Vietnam than Ông Trời as god. What make them different. Doesnt it have any historical records what it was at all? Is that identifying when Ông Trời have nothing to share similarity with other gods, no origin stories or statues etc. If its not derivation of Jade emperor In other cultures having similar then information should be rewrite.

So support cleaning up page or editing better versions. 2001:999:504:88DF:28D0:D6FF:FE2B:33E1 (talk) 03:47, 4 December 2024 (UTC)