Wikipedia:Peer review/Tumbling Dice/archive4
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This peer review discussion is closed. |
I've listed this article for peer review because I would like to take it to FAC and want to see areas for improvement to help streamline the process. The previous PRs are 15-16 years old and not useful for information. I am aware that it needs some work and am not afraid by that prospect. I believe through this PR we can get it to a version that is suitable. After PR and edits, the next step would be to take it to GOCE to make sure the prose is polished sufficiently.
Thanks, TheSandDoctor Talk 02:37, 5 September 2021 (UTC); updated 15:59, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
Comments from Aoba47
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I hope this review is helpful. My comments are mostly focused on the infobox and the lead, although I have briefly looked at the Background and development section and the citations. If I am being completely honest, I believe this article will take a substantial amount of work to be ready for a FAC. I hope this does not come across as overly harsh or rude. I will be more than happy to answer any questions about my comments and I will continue my review once everything has been completed. Aoba47 (talk) 03:32, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
There are still errors in the citations that I will point out below:
Please do not ping me multiple times. If I do not respond the first time, that means that I am away from Wikipedia and repeated pings is not going to make me come on here any faster. And please do not collapse my comments in the future. That would be something best handled by the reviewer. There's a difference between being WP:BOLD and making edits to change elements of someone else's review. I have focused this part on the citations as that part should be fully in order first. Aoba47 (talk) 20:04, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
Here are some comments for the Background and development section. My notes here are relatively minor and nitpick-y. I will likely take a minor break from this peer review on Monday so apologies in advance. I hope this is helpful. Aoba47 (talk) 03:45, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
Apologies for posting a lot of comments >< Aoba47 (talk) 22:00, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
Here are my comments on the Music and lyrics section. I will be taking a break from this review for the next few days (and I actually mean it this time lol) so I will come back to this over the weekend if that is okay with you. Aoba47 (talk) 02:47, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
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- @Aoba47: I am sorry to see you go, but understand and would like to express my appreciation for your assistance and your help with Paint It Black and Red (Taylor Swift album) (the latter will FAC once GOCE edit completed). You've been an immense help. If we do cross paths again, I'll definitely be happy to see you. If you ever need a hand with anything, you know how to find me . Please do take care of yourself. --TheSandDoctor Talk 02:57, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
- Thank you for the kind words! Aoba47 (talk) 03:03, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
Comments from DMT
A look at the prose indicates that this article is very good shape.
- "including Spin ranking it as the third greatest single of all time and Rolling Stone's 500 Greatest Songs of All Time" - Current wording is somewhat inconsistent and a bit grammatically...wonky. Due to it being the lede, I propose the simple: "such as those by Spin and Rolling Stone."
- Trimmed down and swapped Spin for Vulture as I couldn't find a suitable source for Spin (removed in body but missed lede). --TheSandDoctor Talk 17:57, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
- "diverse styles" → "eclectic/diverse/varied[per your discretion] mix of styles" - Current wording implies more of a judgement on the genres themselves rather than how they relate to the song.
- @DMT Biscuit: How does that look? --TheSandDoctor Talk 17:57, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
- '"Tumbling Dice" is known for its "groove"' - Why is groove in quotes? Elsewhere it isn't.
- Resolved. --TheSandDoctor Talk 19:24, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
- '"beyond a few phrases."' - Again, why is this in quotes? Also, shouldn't this whole paragraph be in the section above?
- It was a quote, but short enough probably doesn't matter. I've gone over every quotation mark on the page and believe there aren't any more issues like this present. I also moved this paragraph to the section above and condensed things a bit. How does that look to you? --TheSandDoctor Talk 21:53, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
- Yep, this good. DMT Biscuit (talk) 07:17, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
- "and a persistent favourite in live performances" - is dowling referring to the band's tendency to play the song or his own feelings. If it's the former than that seems somewhat redundant.
- @DMT Biscuit: Admittedly ambiguous. We may just be better to cut it? --TheSandDoctor Talk 16:30, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
- If we, loveable pedantics, can't gleam the meaning then it's not much use to the average reader. DMT Biscuit (talk) 17:03, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
- "nirvana" - Wikilink, the buddist concept, not the band.
- Linked. --TheSandDoctor Talk 16:30, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
Spotchecks
All sources checked are accurate; slight caveat below:
- What's the high-quality reliability of StarPolish?
- @DMT Biscuit: Admittedly no idea, but it was written by Dave Marsh who is an accredited journalist, so I think it's okay. --TheSandDoctor Talk 15:17, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
- I'll say this instance is passable, due to Marsh's credentials. DMT Biscuit (talk) 15:27, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
- @DMT Biscuit: Admittedly no idea, but it was written by Dave Marsh who is an accredited journalist, so I think it's okay. --TheSandDoctor Talk 15:17, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
Comments from zmbro
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These should keep you busy for a short bit. Hope these help. – zmbro (talk) 15:34, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
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- Why was Wyman absent? – zmbro (talk) 12:50, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
- That is a good question and unfortunately one for which the paper sources I have access to are unfortunately silent. Basically, All The Songs states Wyman wasn't in that take and quotes him as saying he hung around until 3am and then left. So I gather it was recorded after 3am? Unclear. --TheSandDoctor Talk 03:04, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
- Hmmm. I'll look in the sources I have later tonight to see if they say anything. You know there HAS to be a reason. – zmbro (talk) 13:06, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
- @Zmbro: Oh, there definitely does. Just is glossed over in the sources I have, probably because it was considered an unimportant detail(?). Let me know if you find something. If we can't find it, it may just have to remain one of the many unanswered questions in the universe though, sadly. Alternatively, it could be as simple as he just felt they weren't going anywhere and wanted to go to bed. There are probably multiple plausible answers haha. --TheSandDoctor Talk 15:00, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
- Oh don't worry, we'll find it. – zmbro (talk) 15:15, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
- @Zmbro: Hehe to the GIF. Any luck so far? Paint It Black just passed FAC --TheSandDoctor Talk 04:19, 18 September 2021 (UTC)
- Unfortunately nope. Ugh. Wyman has a book right? I wonder if he says it in that. – zmbro (talk) 19:46, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
- He does have his own book, but I don't have it. --TheSandDoctor Talk 15:02, 21 September 2021 (UTC)
- Live performances is currently only one sentence. There should be a lot more info than that for an FA. My idea would be are there any notable live performances where something of note might have occurred? If not it doesn't really warrant its own section, imo. – zmbro (talk) 19:48, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
- @Zmbro: We didn't have this issue, then sections were all restructured against norms. That thread needs to be resolved before we can progress to FAC. --TheSandDoctor Talk 15:02, 21 September 2021 (UTC)
- @Zmbro: I have reverted back to the way it was following the discussion going stale for almost 2 weeks. Please take another look when you can as I believe this point to be moot now. --TheSandDoctor Talk 17:12, 30 September 2021 (UTC)
- @Zmbro: We didn't have this issue, then sections were all restructured against norms. That thread needs to be resolved before we can progress to FAC. --TheSandDoctor Talk 15:02, 21 September 2021 (UTC)
Passing comments
Just some passing comments from me:
- I think that sole note needs a reference;
- Note removed. --TheSandDoctor Talk 22:44, 12 September 2021 (UTC)
- When you say in the lead, "Cover versions of the song have been created in a diverse mix of styles such as reggae, bluegrass and noise rock."... I understand that the noise rock comes from the Pussy Galore cover, but I see that Phish has a wide variety of genres, including bluegrass (did they play it on acoustic stringed instruments?). And I don't see where the reggae comes from. I think there needs to be a better coordination between lead and body on the topic of covers. RetiredDuke (talk) 14:06, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
- @RetiredDuke: Thank you for these comments. I have gone ahead and rewritten that line. --TheSandDoctor Talk 22:44, 12 September 2021 (UTC)
Comments from Tkbrett
I'd love to see this one up as an FA, so I'll have a look through this article. Tkbrett (✉) 12:56, 28 September 2021 (UTC)
- Thank you, Tkbrett! I look forward to your comments. Please take another look through if you haven't already as the article structure has changed since you last saw it (no real content change, just heading order and structure) --TheSandDoctor Talk 17:13, 30 September 2021 (UTC)
- I can't help feel that the lead could be tightened – at the moment the sentences in the first paragraph don't flow from one to the other.
- @Tkbrett: I've tried some further copyedits but really am not feeling this. What are your thoughts? Any suggestions for improvement? --TheSandDoctor Talk 22:18, 30 September 2021 (UTC)
- @Tkbrett: I welcome your thoughts on this and any potential further improvement. --TheSandDoctor Talk 22:23, 17 October 2021 (UTC)
- Returning here, I think it's better than I initially thought, mostly through your having moved the mention of Jimmy Miller, which felt somewhat tacked on. I think what sticks out to me now is that the lead doesn't seem particularly detailed. Take, for example, the FA of "Something", where the release and commercial performance are both contained in the first paragraph while the writing and recording are covered in the second paragraph. Don't get me wrong, your lead hits the main points, I just think it could be a little more fleshed out, such as discussing the unorthodox way it was recorded, the fact that they recorded while tax exiles, and so on.
- @Tkbrett: I welcome your thoughts on this and any potential further improvement. --TheSandDoctor Talk 22:23, 17 October 2021 (UTC)
- @Tkbrett: I've tried some further copyedits but really am not feeling this. What are your thoughts? Any suggestions for improvement? --TheSandDoctor Talk 22:18, 30 September 2021 (UTC)
- ... to avoid paying 93 percent taxes.: you could provide some brief context about the supertax Harold Wilson's Labour government instituted (here's a source). The last sentence of the first paragraph in the Background and inspiration section of "Taxman" provides something along the lines I mean (ignore the fact that the source doesn't actually support everything in that sentence though...).
- Good idea! Added. --TheSandDoctor Talk 22:18, 30 September 2021 (UTC)
- "Tumbling Dice" was initially composed without lyrics being written by Jagger and Richards beyond a few simple phrases.: quite an awkward sentence that I'm not sure how to reword because I don't know what it means.
- I thought it was clear, but evidently not. How does it look now? --TheSandDoctor Talk 22:18, 30 September 2021 (UTC)
- The musical composition of "Tumbling Dice" was initially written by Jagger and Richards with filler lyrics consisting of a few simple phrases. This uses passive voicing ("written by Jagger and Richards" as opposed to "Jagger and Richards wrote"). We can make it active as: Jagger and Richards initially wrote "Tumbling Dice" with filler lyrics consisting of a few simple phrases. or something along those lines.
- I thought it was clear, but evidently not. How does it look now? --TheSandDoctor Talk 22:18, 30 September 2021 (UTC)
- The basic track was recorded on 3 August 1971, but the infobox currently writes the recording dates were 7 June and October 1971, November and December 1971, January and March 1972.
- Yes, those are when the sessions took place. This song was recorded somewhat atypically and seemingly sort of backwards; they recorded the music without any real lyrics then took it to Sunset Sound Studios and finished it there over multiple months. There isn't an inconsistency here that I can see? --TheSandDoctor Talk 22:18, 30 September 2021 (UTC)
- What I mean is: shouldn't 3 August 1971 be included as one of the recording dates in the infobox? Or was the work from that session not used on the completed recording? If so, that's not apparent from the text of the body.
- Yes, those are when the sessions took place. This song was recorded somewhat atypically and seemingly sort of backwards; they recorded the music without any real lyrics then took it to Sunset Sound Studios and finished it there over multiple months. There isn't an inconsistency here that I can see? --TheSandDoctor Talk 22:18, 30 September 2021 (UTC)
- "Tumbling Dice" is known for its groove. Source?
- Covered by the entire first paragraph of "Music and lyrics". --TheSandDoctor Talk 22:18, 30 September 2021 (UTC)
- It was acknowledged forty years after the release ...: passive voicing – who did the acknowledging?
- The Release section reads like a collection of facts and lists – not much flow in the prose at the moment. Also, I'm thinking the mention of concert films from this section and the mention of the song being played in concert in the Live performances and other versions section could be joined together, since they feel somewhat relevant to one another.
- This currently matches how FA Paint It Black handles it? --TheSandDoctor Talk 22:18, 30 September 2021 (UTC)
- Yeah, I think it could be changed there as well. I think the Release section ought to stick to the original studio version, while the concert film versions (which are live performance after all) should be included with the live performances and other versions.
- This currently matches how FA Paint It Black handles it? --TheSandDoctor Talk 22:18, 30 September 2021 (UTC)
- I think having "(1972)" tacked on after every mention of Exile on Main St. is unnecessary after the first time. It disrupts the prose of a couple sentences.
- Why does Lenny Kaye's review get its own paragraph? It could probably be joined to the one above it.
- I think the Commercial performance section can be entirely amalgamated into the Release section.
- This wouldn't match what is typical for song FAs? --TheSandDoctor Talk 22:18, 30 September 2021 (UTC)
- Yes, you are correct. The MOS does mention that short sections should be generally avoided, so you could consider moving it to be a subsection of the Release or Reception sections (as is done at Something), but it's up to you.
- This wouldn't match what is typical for song FAs? --TheSandDoctor Talk 22:18, 30 September 2021 (UTC)
- I think we can ditch the table for Linda Ronstadt's version, since its already covered (MOS:ALBUM mentions "If an album charts in only one or two countries, a table may not be necessary ...").
Here are some comments for now after a quick run through. I also made several other changes as I went through. Cheers. Tkbrett (✉) 18:53, 30 September 2021 (UTC)
- So sorry, TheSandDoctor, this completely slipped my mind! I'll follow up here if I don't end up getting called into work today. Tkbrett (✉) 12:53, 19 October 2021 (UTC)
- TheSandDoctor, comments above. Apologies on the delay ... Tkbrett (✉) 13:38, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
- @Tkbrett: Apologies to add work, but could you please take another look through it? The GOCE completed the other day and I think it addressed at least some of these. --TheSandDoctor Talk 05:35, 4 November 2021 (UTC)
- TheSandDoctor, comments above. Apologies on the delay ... Tkbrett (✉) 13:38, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
Comments from SandyGeorgia
- You can install user:GregU/dashes.js to keep dashes in order.
- @SandyGeorgia: How do I get it to work? I've installed it now. It's on the side column, right? --TheSandDoctor Talk 21:30, 28 November 2021 (UTC)
- You can install User:Ohconfucius/script/MOSNUM dates to keep dates in order.
- Already have it. I tried dmy but it didn't cause any changes. I never have seen it work... --TheSandDoctor Talk 21:30, 28 November 2021 (UTC)
- I think the only reason the two scripts are not doing anything is that right now no changes are needed, so it is returning … nothing. The dashes script is in a tab at the top, with a dash on it, and the date script is in the left sidebar, but right now, neither of them are doing anything for me either, probably because I already ran them and everything is already in order. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:40, 28 November 2021 (UTC)
- Watch the WP:NBSPs on chart numbers.
- Take care with also and however (see the top of User:SandyGeorgia)
- Take care to be consistent with numbers. Although typically numbers ten or less are spelled out, if they are used in the same context as a larger number, then all need to be digits.
- Vary wording to avoid same constructs right next to each other … Tumbling Dice" spent eight weeks on the UK Singles Chart, peaking at number five. In the US, the single peaked at number seven on the Billboard Hot 100 chart. … peaking … peaked … change one of them to something else (reaching, attaining ?)
- This is awkward … Ronstadt's version became a Top 40-charting single … the correctly hyphenated modifier to the noun single would be Top-40-charting, which is odd. Try something simpler like … Ronstadt’s single was a Top-40 hit the following year ??
- If you can work on the tips at WP:RECEPTION, you’ll have an easier time at FAC.
That is a very precursory look, not in depth, but I hope some of it helps. Good luck ! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:47, 15 November 2021 (UTC)