Jump to content

Wikipedia:Reference desk/Humanities

Edit links
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
< Wikipedia:Reference desk

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Hegvald (talk | contribs) at 16:44, 12 September 2020 (→September 12). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Welcome to the humanities section
of the Wikipedia reference desk.
skip to bottom
Select a section:
Shortcut
Want a faster answer?

Main page: Help searching Wikipedia

   

How can I get my question answered?

  • Select the section of the desk that best fits the general topic of your question (see the navigation column to the right).
  • Post your question to only one section, providing a short header that gives the topic of your question.
  • Type '~~~~' (that is, four tilde characters) at the end – this signs and dates your contribution so we know who wrote what and when.
  • Don't post personal contact information – it will be removed. Any answers will be provided here.
  • Please be as specific as possible, and include all relevant context – the usefulness of answers may depend on the context.
  • Note:
    • We don't answer (and may remove) questions that require medical diagnosis or legal advice.
    • We don't answer requests for opinions, predictions or debate.
    • We don't do your homework for you, though we'll help you past the stuck point.
    • We don't conduct original research or provide a free source of ideas, but we'll help you find information you need.


Ready? Ask a new question!


How do I answer a question?

Main page: Wikipedia:Reference desk/Guidelines

  • The best answers address the question directly, and back up facts with wikilinks and links to sources. Do not edit others' comments and do not give any medical or legal advice.
See also:

September 5

Anyone have access to the Brill Encyclopedia of Islam?

I've been trying to dig up some sources for the article on the now-ruined city of Tubunae in Algeria and came across this Google Books snippet: [1]

From what little I can see here, it looks like it says something about how the city was sacked and destroyed, leading to its current uninhabited status, but I can't see enough to figure out when this happened, who did the destroying, etc. Does anyone have access to this source?

Thanks,

3 kids in a trenchcoat (talk) 04:40, 5 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

We have a dedicated page for other editors to look up resources, it's the Resource Exchange; you might be better asking there. LongHairedFop (talk) 09:14, 5 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
User:LongHairedFop: very helpful to know, thanks! 3 kids in a trenchcoat (talk) 20:54, 5 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
User:3 kids in a trenchcoat, by the dark arts of Google-fu and a lot of luck, I have located p. 580 of the Encyclopaedia of Islam which you can see here (second page down). I suspect that the copyright status is somewhat iffy, so I wouldn't link it to the article. Alansplodge (talk) 11:15, 5 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
User:Alansplodge, that's exactly what I was looking for, thanks! 3 kids in a trenchcoat (talk) 20:54, 5 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Diversity Visa Lottery and Trump travel ban question

In this article, it states that people who won the Diversity Visa Lottery from countries on Donald Trump's travel ban were unable to actually get their US visas:

https://eurasianet.org/kyrgyzstans-lucky-losers-rue-their-dashed-american-dream

Anyway, I was wondering if anyone knows if this has actually changed since then. I feel so sorry for these people and hope that they can finally make it into the US. Futurist110 (talk) 06:27, 5 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Diversity Visa Lottery Winners Are Out Of Luck With Trump's Ban On The Program (9 July 18, 2020) from WBUR-FM. Alansplodge (talk) 11:22, 5 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Nain Singh Rawat - which is the surname?

Howdy reference desk! Looking for someone who is familiar with Indian/South Asian naming conventions. I'm doing some research to expand Nain Singh Rawat, and I noticed that several sources (and several other languages' versions of the article, for that matter) just refer to him as Nain Singh. There are definitely sources which refer to him as Nain Singh Rawat, though. I'm trying to figure out whether his family name should be listed as "Singh" or "Rawat" - perhaps "Rawat" is a title or clan name which is treated differently from a surname? I'm quite ignorant in this area. Thanks in advance! GeneralNotability (talk) 16:46, 5 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Rawat (title). Is the "Rawat" in "Nain Singh Rawat" this usage? --Khajidha (talk) 17:08, 5 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Not sure if this helps but Rediscovering India Abode Of Gods: Vol 37 (p. 59) has: "The principal castes amongst them are Pangti, Jangpangi, Rawats and Dhammasattus, rest of them add the name of their village after their surname e.g Gunjiyal, Martolia, Burfal and Netwal... They began to work with the survey parties and won laurels the most remarkable figure being Pd. Kishan Singh and Nain Singh." Alansplodge (talk) 17:23, 5 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Khajidha: I don't think so, from my reading so far I don't think he was from a noble family. Alansplodge, ahh, so it could be a caste...that sounds plausible. GeneralNotability (talk) 19:23, 5 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I should have linked Bhotiya which is the ethnic group described in the link above. I had previously thought that the Singh name was a marker of Sikhism, but apparently not exclusively. Alansplodge (talk) 19:39, 5 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
To muddy the waters a bit further, we have Rawat language and Ban Rawats. Alansplodge (talk) 19:51, 5 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Our article Singh says ""Singh" is generally used as a surname (e.g. Manmohan Singh or Yuvraj Singh) or as a middle name/title (e.g. Mulayam Singh Yadav, Mahendra Singh Dhoni). When used as a middle name, it is generally followed by the caste, clan or family name". Peter Hopkirk's Trespassers on the Roof of the World indexes him under N as Nain Singh, and his cousin Mani Singh Rawat as Mani Singh. It may be that we shouldn't seek to impose a "forename, surname" pattern here. DuncanHill (talk) 02:34, 6 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
DuncanHill, sure, I'm mostly trying to figure out what to use as the list as/sort by parameter, and whether the article needs to be renamed Nain Singh vice Nain Singh Rawat (I note that we moved it from Nain Singh back in 2008). Regardless, thank you to everyone here for your help! GeneralNotability (talk) 14:39, 6 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Well then what you need is what I provided with Hopkirk. Sort as Nain. DuncanHill (talk) 14:45, 6 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
We have quite a few articles with a title of the form "XYZ Singh Rawat", where XYZ can be any of: Bachi · Bharat · Chandan · Dhan · Dilip · Gopal · Harak · Harish Chandra · Jaswant · Kedar · Kehar · Krishna · Mani · Manish · Meharban · Mohan · Nain · Nitendra · Priyanka · Rajinder · Rasa · Shankar · Suraj · Suresh · Tejpal · Tirath · Trivendra · Upendra. With few exceptions these have a corresponding sort key "Rawat, XYZ Singh". The exceptions are:
What I know about Indian names is mainly that it is a very complicated issue, so I am not stating (or trying to suggest) that any of the above is (in)correct.  --Lambiam 17:08, 6 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@GeneralNotability: Although I am have south Asian studies background, you may wish to reconfirm my perception from some native Hindi language speaker,
My perception is it seems to follows pattern of "middle name is a portion of a personal(first) name that is written between the person's first given name and their Royal clan name (Rawat) as surname." My perception is many north Indians self opt for middle name of their choice (I may be wrong here). But in this case middle name Singh seems to come as part of First name to signify royal male of royal linage. In any case Singh does not seem to be Surname in this case most likely to be part of First name itself.
If there is special value to clan name then many times family surnames if any dropped and clan names are used as Surnames to signify social status, in such cases formally it tends to work as surname. There is one more possibility that Nain Singh himself never used Rawat as surname officially but people around him kept using his clan name as a marker or mark of respect. So answer to your main question it is safe enough to use Rawat as his Family name and not Singh.
I hope this helps to an extent un till you confirm with official documents and reconfirm naming convention from some native Hindi speaker,
Bookku (talk) 17:54, 6 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

September 6

Indicting a sitting president

When a US state-level prosecutorial office, after an investigation, finds that there is substantial evidence that a person committed a felony, they will normally seek an indictment or file charges. What if that person is a sitting US President? The DOJ apparently has a long-standing rule against this, based on a 2000 opinion issued by the DOJ's Office of Legal Counsel stating that a sitting US President cannot be federally indicted. But state-level prosecutors are not bound by that rule. Is there any legal impediment to them indicting a president – divorced from the non-legal issue whether doing so is prudent or opportune?  --Lambiam 18:20, 6 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Putting aside issues like whether the President's absolute immunity to prosecution while in office extends to state courts (the fact that an appeal of such a state court prosecution would eventually find its way to the federal Supreme Court is important), there is at least one federal statute extending removal jurisdiction to criminal prosecutions of federal officials. Thus, a state court prosecution could be removed to federal court and once there summarily dismissed without any trial on the merits. 199.66.69.67 (talk) 20:16, 6 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I wonder if courts would deem this to apply also to defendants who have left office, when pertaining to acts committed while in office and claimed to have been in the performance of the duties of that office.  --Lambiam 07:37, 7 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
No idea, I haven't looked at caselaw. The fun part about removal jurisdiction is that once a notice of removal is filed, the case is transferred by operation of law to the federal court and there is at the very least I believe there is jurisdiction to remand the case back to state court in the event removal jurisdiction is found not to exist. The state court and prosecution can't prevent removal; the prosecution can can only request a remand. So at least in theory, a criminal defendant that intends to raise an "official duties" defense should be able to remove the case to federal court. 199.66.69.67 (talk) 09:07, 7 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Six score and sixteen days from now hordes of lawyers may be poring over case law to find out.  --Lambiam 13:22, 7 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
This is about a motion to change, after a prior removal, not only the court but also the defendant, pursuant to 28 U.S.C. § 2679(d)2. The statute states that "certification of the Attorney General shall conclusively establish scope of office or employment for purposes of removal", where said certification is "certification by the Attorney General that the defendant employee was acting within the scope of his office or employment at the time of the incident out of which the claim arose". [My emphasis. --L]. But this need not be the AG at the time of the incident.  --Lambiam 11:46, 9 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
§2679 deals with civil actions, not criminal actions (and Chapter 171, which contains that section, deals with tort proceedings in particular). I don't believe AG action is required for removal under §1442. Really, if I were going to seriously research this I'd try to find a law library that carries updated versions of Moore's Federal Practice and (to a lesser extent) Wright & Miller's Federal Practice and Procedure. 199.66.69.67 (talk) 00:26, 10 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

September 7

Criminal Justice Reform

What are the 2020 presidential candidates' platforms regarding criminal justice reform? Or, where can I find this information? 2600:1700:CBD0:C50:D066:FE87:479D:1637 (talk) 01:14, 7 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

On their campaign websites? Futurist110 (talk) 02:38, 7 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Nobody has done more for criminal justice reform than President Trump, and if elected he will continue to restore the greatness of the criminal justice system that Democrats have hijacked and dismantled. For more lack of detail, see www.donaldjtrump.com. For the boring and weak ideas that nobody wants to see anyway of Sleepy Joe who is a puppet controlled by the terrorist anarchists roaming the streets of the Democrat-controlled zones of chaos and destruction, see joebiden.com/justice/.  --Lambiam 07:21, 7 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
As a disinterested and doubtless under-informed spectator peering from a distant continent, it nonetheless appears to my occluded perception that Lambiam's answer above may perhaps include a less than complete neutrality of viewpoint. Possibly I may have failed to detect any intentional irony that may have been intended, but if so I fear that others, with perhaps less than my own six decades of native English usage, may also have done so. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.122.2.158 (talk) 10:39, 7 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The first half of my response mainly consists of text snippets, mildly paraphrased to fit into grammatical sentences while retaining the semantic content, but otherwise taken almost verbatim from the website and from the main source of information regarding policy positions, being the tweets and public statements of the candidate. You are welcome to help answering the question by finding more specific or concrete policy statements. The second part has been formulated in the same vein so as to avoid an abrupt change of style.  --Lambiam 14:21, 7 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
In any case, the choice of words deployed by user:Lambian seem unsuitable for the reference desk. The RD should neither be the furniture for partisan propaganda nor should it be the pulpit for ad hominem attacks. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 15:07, 7 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It would appear that the third responder above mistakenly took phrases from the GOP website about the Democratic candidate, rather than posting factual information about the policy positions of the Democratic candidate. This can be a common mistake among those depending on echo chambers for their opinions. DOR (HK) (talk) 15:37, 7 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I should hope that everyone can understand that the formulation was tongue-in-cheek, and with respect to the characterization of candidate Joseph R. Biden not so much taking phrases from the GOP website, but using directly the language coming from the horse's mouth, such as an SNL skit might also use – but perhaps some people have never heard the other candidate speak. The first response above referred the questioner to the campaign websites of the candidates. For the Democratic candidate that is a fair (although somewhat lazy) response, but I provided a link to the relevant section of the website of the Democratic campaign, which is clear and succinct; there would be no point in attempting to summarize it here. Not so for the other website. The first respondent added a question mark to their response, possibly meant rhetorically; well, the answer to that question, "On their campaign websites?", taken on its face value, is "no, not for both campaigns". What I wrote are the most concrete policy statements I could find, although I did not read every last sentence on the site. Isn't "For more lack of detail, see ..." a clear giveaway?  --Lambiam 18:23, 7 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, it is. And it's also a great advertisement for always reading through to the end of a post, rather than knee-jerkily reacting after the first few words. But maybe some quotation marks wouldn't have gone astray. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 23:42, 7 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
As Charlie Brown says (every Christmas), "Don't you know sarcasm when you hear it?" :) ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 08:40, 8 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
See also Poe's law. --Jayron32 14:55, 9 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Sometimes it's done on purpose, to see who bites. Long before the internet, Society for Indecency to Naked Animals was an example of such a thing. More recently, I suspect QAnon might be likewise. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 04:23, 10 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Intentionally trying to upset people is called trolling. --Jayron32 12:08, 10 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The SINA thing was long before the internet, and could be called "hoaxing". QAnon is engaged in hoaxing, and I'm sure its perps would gladly plead guilty to the charge of "trolling". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:51, 10 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Parsees under apartheidt

How were Parsees classified under apartheid in South Africa? Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 04:12, 7 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Indian. See Apartheid#Legislation 41.165.67.114 (talk) 07:20, 7 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Which doesn't mention Parsees. Where they treated as Indian or Persian, and for that matter, how were Persians treated? DuncanHill (talk) 12:23, 7 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Not my specialist subject, but our Parsees article says that they emigrated from Persia to the Indian subcontinent in the 10th century, which is going to make them Indian by almost any definition. On the subject of actual Persians, there doesn't seem to be a large Iranian community in South Africa but there are Lebanese people in South Africa, which "during the apartheid era were classified as white". Alansplodge (talk) 14:10, 7 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
See List of countries by Zoroastrian population. 2A00:23C6:2403:E900:9844:6164:682A:D268 (talk) 18:32, 7 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

help finding Ng'wanamalundi

Hi does anybody have access to a copy of Ngoma ya Ng'wanamalundi (Swahili Edition) Mbogo, E ISBN 10: 9966839089 ISBN 13: 9789966839084

Working on topic at swwiki. Electronic copy would be appreciated, or at least the ToC / intro as a first step. Kipala (talk) 06:31, 7 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

There are 4 print editions (no electronic formats): "Formats and Editions of Ngoma ya ng'wanamalundi". www.worldcat.org.
You can find the nearest library with a copy here (good luck): "Ngoma ya ng'wanamalundi". www.worldcat.org. or here: "Ngoma ya ng'wanamalundi". Google Books (in Swahili).

William Snook - 1883 article

This is a long shot: this eBay listing is for an 1883 magazine or book article, about William Snook. What is the source? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 18:44, 7 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Judging from the rightmost page there, it's The Sporting Mirror magazine. There are also other volumes on eBay, like this. Brandmeistertalk 19:19, 7 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Doh! I looked at that image, and completely missed the top line. Thank you. I can see "number XXXI (31) volume VI (6)", but the date is unreadable. It's August, and could be 1883 (Vol II ran from July to Dec 1881). Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 21:05, 7 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Confirmed here and added to the article as "further reading". Now to track down a copy! Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 21:14, 7 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved
 – Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 21:14, 7 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Tombstone inscription

Why does here the tombstone read "His wife" when seemingly her husband Hummel is still alive? Looks weird also because it would be otherwise unclear whom "his" refers to. Is this a thing on real graves? 212.180.235.46 (talk) 19:13, 7 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

First, its a movie, so who knows what liberties they took with actual practice. That said, in a U.S. military cemetary, both husband and wife are buried in same plot. In this case, the husband served in the military and will get the front of the tombstone, and his wife will get the back of the tombstone with the husband's name on the front. When the husband dies his info will be added to the tombstone. Thus, it reads "his wife" where "his" means the person who is still alive but will be buried with her. RudolfRed (talk) 00:57, 8 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, that makes sense. 212.180.235.46 (talk) 07:23, 8 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
This appears to be customary at Arlington National Cemetery. For two examples, see here for the couple Francis J. Witt, Jr., and his wife (pre-deceased) Mary Lou, and here for Frederick Charles Frost and his wife Nita Conner. Note that in both cases the wife's name is the first line, followed by "his wife", which makes sense but is not the order seen in the opening shots of The Rock.

September 9

Is there an Ohio Death Record for Jennie S. Papa on Ancestry.com?

Is there an Ohio Death Record for Jennie S. Papa (1909-2008) on Ancestry.com? If so, what does it give for her birthplace? I don't mean Italy, but rather the specific city in Italy. I am asking because Jennie is the sister of supercentenarian Michael DeSantis (1899-2009), a case that I am trying to research more into:

https://gerontology.wikia.org/wiki/Michael_DeSantis

The issue with verifying Mr. DeSantis's case is that he and his family apparently weren't in the US in either 1900 or 1910, so they're not enumerated in either of those two US Censuses. So, the earliest record that we have found for him so far is a 1918 World War I draft registration card (which gives his birth date as May 26, 1899, just like he claimed). If we were able to find out where exactly in Italy Mr. DeSantis and his family lived when his sister Jennie was born in 1909, then maybe I and/or someone else would be able to uncover additional early-life evidence in favor of his claimed age. Futurist110 (talk) 05:52, 9 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Ancestry's Social Security Applications and Claims Index says Jennie S. Papa AKA Vincenza Scianna was born in "Baghina, Italy". No such place seems to exist. A census record suggests she arrived in the United States in 1916, but I have not seen any passenger manifests related to that which might have better detail with that name. If the AKA Vincenza Scianna is correct, however, she likely hailed from Bagheria in Sicily, based on a passenger manifest. I cannot find an Ohio death record. 199.66.69.67 (talk) 06:26, 9 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think that Vincenza Scianna is actually her, though. Could you do a search for Genevieve Papa and/or Genoveffa Papa instead? According to the US SSDI, her lifespan should be 1909-2008, as I mentioned above. Futurist110 (talk) 06:49, 9 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Her parents' names should be Quinton/Querino DeSantis and Angela Volpi/Volpe. Futurist110 (talk) 06:50, 9 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
On second look, you're probably right that the Vincenza Scianna is incorrect. Another record with that AKA says it's Jennie Pappa, and the parents' names don't come close to matching what you provide. I was able to find another person's family tree that linked to an Ellis Island record for Angela Volpe, returning with her U.S.-born children on 20 May 1911. The listed "last permanent residence" town is Roccaraso (high confidence I'm reading it correctly), and place of birth may be Rivisondoli (only medium confidence on this due to some pretty obvious inconsistencies on the lines for the children). I think that's as good as I'm going to get. 199.66.69.67 (talk) 17:02, 9 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Is Rivisondoli Angela's birth place or Jennie's birth place? Also, would it be against the rules for you to e-mail me a copy of this record? In addition to the information for Jennie, I'm also curious about the information that this record gives for Michael. Futurist110 (talk) 00:41, 10 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Angela. I didn't read the other names (these handwritten records are a pain in the neck). You can view it yourself for free at Familysearch: [2]. Angela is on line 11 (the number is crossed out and 10 written in). The birthplace column is the last one on the subsequent page. 199.66.69.67 (talk) 01:27, 10 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Bless you! Amazing and excellent find/discovery on your own part! :) I have now posted this research on the 110 Club forum (which is where we post supercentenarian research): https://the110club.com/michael-desantis-1899-2009-us-pa-t4392-s60.html#p40095140 ; anyway, if you want credit for this research (and really, I don't want to steal credit from you for this), you can e-mail the Gerontology Research Group and tell them your name and about this 1911 document for Michael DeSantis and his family that you discovered. (You could also pass your name on to me and then I could give it to the GRG, but I don't know if you actually want that. You could also remain anonymous if you want, in which case you'll get credit for this verification as being "Anonymous".) Futurist110 (talk) 02:03, 10 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
P.S.: On this record, 12-year-old Michele DeSante is very likely Michael DeSantis (it even lists him as being born in Charleroi, Pennsylvania, just like he claimed later on in his life) and 2-year-old Genoveffa DeSante is very likely the future Jennie Pap(p)a. Futurist110 (talk) 02:17, 10 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Spouse of head of state/government belonging to a different political party

I don't think any American first lady has ever belonged to a different political party than her husband. (At least not during their spouse's term in office.) Can anyone think of an example, from any country, of a spouse of a head of state or head of government who is known to have belonged to a different political party during the period that their spouse was in office? Thanks. LANTZYTALK 12:57, 9 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

During Slobodan Milošević's presidency, his wife led the Yugoslav Left (JUL), whilst he led the Socialist Party of Serbia (SPS). One could argue that JUL and SPS were allied, but they were distinct political parties. --Soman (talk) 13:05, 9 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Not a country, but Maria Shriver was a Democrat while First Lady of California; her husband is a Republican. 59.124.6.175 (talk) 06:37, 10 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

September 10

International borders and social mobility

Which international border has the greatest difference between the levels of social mobility between the countries on either side?

I’m open to gauging social mobility by whatever metric gives the ability to evaluate the greatest number of borders. I’d like something a bit less crude than GDP, but if that’s all there is I’ll take it. HDI might work? The Global Social Mobility Index would be ideal, but only covers 82 countries.

Optional follow-up questions:

  • Which borders have a greater difference in social mobility than the US/Mexico border?
  • What level of security is in operation at such borders?
  • What levels of annual legal and illegal migration are seen at such borders?

Thanks for your help! - Cucumber Mike (talk) 20:08, 10 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Someone already mentioned that, just three posts above yours. --Viennese Waltz 11:51, 11 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Australia's maritime borders might also be worth considering, and I think there is plenty of data. Asylum in Australia would be one starting point. And for another source, perhaps the World Bank report on intergenerational social mobility (you can get a pdf from here [3] might be another way in. At a quick glance, the maps at the end show data on some of the countries that are blank on the map in the article you linked, so it might fill in some gaps. 70.67.193.176 (talk) 13:51, 11 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Australia's only shared maritime border in the usual sense is with Papua New Guinea -- see "Top Western islands"... AnonMoos (talk)
Is there any law preventing Australian citizens in good standing from simply leaving the country? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:48, 11 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
An easily overlooked border is that between France and Suriname. I don't know the social mobility index value for Suriname, but its GDP per capita is comparable to that of Colombia.  --Lambiam 23:48, 11 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

What is the name of this type of fallacy, almost like a strawman?

What is the name of this type of fallacy, almost like a strawman?

Some example, person 1, believe A is happening and/or B is true. Based at that the fact that "A is happening" and "B is true", he believe that X, Y and Z must be done or made legal.

Person 2 (that dont believe A is happening or B is true) is arguing against this guy and say "doing X, Y and Z is stupid/evil....." (at this world where A is not happening and B is not true).

So person 2 attack person 1 arguments that X, Y and Z must be done, from the point of view of a world where A is not happening and B is not true.

This is not exactly a strawman because person 2 say person 1 believe X, Y and Z must be done, a thing person 1 really said. But he implies person 1 believe thing X, Y and Z must be done at a world where A is not happening and B is not true.2804:7F2:594:C5BD:1CEC:4E9B:AAB6:95D6 (talk) 23:08, 10 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure that what you describe is a reasoning error or "fallacy" -- there's a dispute over premises, which naturally transfers to what is inferred from the premises. There is a fallacy of Denying the antecedent... AnonMoos (talk) 03:54, 11 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Honestly this. Disputing the premises upon which the other party bases his argument is not only not a fallacy, it's good argumentation, and can be tactically far more powerful than attacking the other party's argument directly because the failure to provide any justification for those bases suggests that the other party lacks a justification or failed to realize a justification might be needed. 199.66.69.67 (talk) 04:16, 11 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
It is also a sneaky tactic if the second party actually agrees with the other party's premises, but conceals this in order to undermine the argument by mounting an attack on the basis of the argument rather than the argument itself. In legal disputes before a court, and particularly in jurisdictions where the rule applies that an unrebutted allegation may be viewed as a concession (see e.g. Rule 56(e)(2) of the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure), this is common practice.  --Lambiam 13:01, 11 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
User 199.66.69.67, person 2 is not disputing the premise, he just keeps saying that doing X, Y and Z is evil/stupid. The problem/fallacy is that he keeps doing that in a way that shows that he is saying that doing X, Y and Z is evil or stupid, under a world where his premises (and not the person 1 premises) are right premises.
Imagine person 1 and 2 are stranded at the sea and person 1 thinks he needs to drink seawater to not die from dehydration, person 2 believes that drinking sea water brings you closer to dehydration. Person 2, instead of trying to prove that drinking sea water is not a ok thing like person 1 believes, start to talk about how at a world where drinking water makes you more dehydrated, drinking it would be a pretty stupid idea and that person 1 is stupid for wanting to drink the water. The thing that is happening here, is that person 2 is not really attacking the person 1 argument/conclusion, because this argument implies some premise and if you change the premise of course a new conclusion is necessary. So person 2 is saying person 1 conclusion is stupid under his premise while acting like he is saying its wrong under person 1 premise.
So he is not really saying person 1 said something else he didnt, and attacked that, like what would happen under strawman fallacy (he says person 1 said drinking sea water is what they should do and that was really what person 1 said) , but he implies the person 1 conclusion is a conclusion to person 2 premises and attack that.2804:7F2:594:C5BD:C0E4:31BD:6CAC:12EA (talk) 01:23, 12 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

September 11

Who would be responsible to remove an unwilling Trump?

Since about a year we have been seeing more and more people raising concerns that Trump may refuse to abdicate the presidency if he incurs an electoral defeat in 2020. Some politicians like Pelosi have nonchalantly disavowed such concerns and put their unassailable faith in the American system of government, while others like Biden have echoed them and Sanders even considers crafting legal precautions.

My question is, which apparently has no been addressed by any politician or news media so far, which government agency would be responsible to accompany Trump out of the White House if he physically insists to remain. Colonestarrice (talk) 18:17, 11 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The Secret Service would physically remove him from the White House like they would with any other trespasser. Once Inauguration Day comes, unless he's been reelected by the Electoral College he's no longer the President. 199.66.69.67 (talk) 19:34, 11 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The agents of the Secret Service must follow the orders of the Director, a Trump appointee after a shake-up. The latter operates under the direction of the Secretary of Homeland Security, currently vacant, but the acting Secretary, a staunch Trump supporter, is a designated Trump appointee whose legality is disputed after the position became vacant through another shake-up. Who in the line of authority will then step forward and categorize the present Occupant as a tresspasser and give the order to remove them?  --Lambiam 23:34, 11 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
If Biden wins, he'll be in position to re-fill those positions. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:47, 11 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I really don't know, that wasn't the question OP asked. I don't think it really matters. 199.66.69.67 (talk) 01:42, 12 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Precisely what I was thinking. It is naive to believe that these officials will remove their appointer, ally, and (former) superior. Biden may be legally empowered to replace them once inaugurated, but I believe that trump will not even allow for a transition to occur. I mean does anyone here genuinely think that Trump will sit down with Biden for more than two month and quietly observe how his power vanishes? Colonestarrice (talk) 09:13, 12 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
This is "deep state"-tier reasoning. That is, it's tantamount to believing the same nonsense about career federal employees working to undermine the Presidency. The people within the executive branch all have their own lives they care about, and would benefit not one whit by assisting Trump in unlawfully occupying the White House after the end of his presidency. Beyond that you're saying "What if there's a coup?" If that's your question, I would refer you to articles about historical coups d'état, because the resolution of an American one would certainly mirror those historical ones. 199.66.69.67 (talk) 14:19, 12 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
(EC) Remember WP:BLP. Anyway if a president doesn't allow a transition team to be involved, that's unfortunate and it may make the transition rougher. However ultimately many countries with varying systems are able to deal with fairly abrupt transitions. The US if anything seems better placed than even a number that do deal with them. Nil Einne (talk) 14:42, 12 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
It's not abdication. The Orange One isn't a monarch. Clarityfiend (talk) 07:19, 12 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I'm well aware of that, I chose the term 1) since he's not so far away from being one 2) for the sake of eloquence and humorous exaggeration. Colonestarrice (talk) 09:21, 12 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I'd love to see Arnold Schwarzenegger go into the Oval Office and tell him, "You're fired!" Clarityfiend (talk) 07:24, 12 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

September 12

Swedish American State Bank, Chicago

Swedish American State Bank Building in Andersonville, Chicago

I stumbled over this bank building in Chicago on a blog and got curious about the bank itself and its history, and about who its presumably Swedish-immigrant founders might have been. (I have often heard it repeated that Chicago about 1900 or so had a Swedish population larger than that of Stockholm, and this appears to have been a predominantly Swedish neighbourhood.) But lo and behold, Wikipedia had absolutely nothing on the Swedish American State Bank. The building appears to be regarded as a local landmark, but the bank seems to be mostly forgotten. Googling the name turns up a bank in Courtland, Kansas with the same name. I assume it could be the sole remaining branch of a once-larger bank that also owned the Andersonville building, or another company that at some point took over the name. So, if someone has an interest in Swedish-American history, Chicago local history or the banking history of the Midwestern U.S. and more time than I do to research it, here is a subject for you to write about. --Hegvald (talk) 16:43, 12 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Humanities&oldid=978054043"