User talk:Mo-Al

Welcome to my talk page! Feel free to leave a message, but remember to sign your comments with ~~~~

Welcome!

Hello, Mo-Al, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

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I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or place {{helpme}} on your talk page and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Again, welcome!  —Khoikhoi 02:32, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

I see you've been putting a lot of work into the Wald (onomastics) article.

It seems you've been working on it quite a bit, translating some of the German (is that what language that is?) into English, and generally cleaning it up and making it a little less confusing.

Perhaps you would like to take a look at Roth (onomastics), a very similar article with a lot of the same translation problems. It is currently up for deletion, mostly because no one really seems sure what it is about. If you could improve it, maybe it wouldn't be in danger of deletion.

I don't know German, and I'm not even sure that language is German, so obviously I'm next to useless where that is concerned. But since you've done so much with the Wald article, maybe you can help with the Roth one as well. ONUnicorn 15:18, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

I must admit I don't really know German (although Altavista Babelfish is helpful), but it's not too hard to translate. Now if there was an article which was not fully translated from Hebrew it would be easier.--Mo-Al 18:32, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Wahl clean up

Thank you for doing this. Hopefully your efforts won't be reverted back. —WAvegetarian•(talk) 18:53, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I hope that the case gets dealt with before 3RR comes into play. Mo-Al 21:04, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

AMC strategy and the history of the fastback Marlin

Hi Mo-Al!

I am not sure about the instructions you gave me about resurrecting the text. I am also not clear about the templates you suggest. The ones I found in the sandbox area are all blank. Because you are the computer expert and know your way around Wikipedia, I will copy the references for the Marlin article below and then perhaps you will have time to properly "Wikify" this entry. That will be a better solution and have less frustration for all. I also have photographs that would help illustrate this article, but handling them, and doing the proper uploads and placement is beyond my experience. I can e-mail them, but there is no way I can do it since you have not given permission on your user page. Please let me know how this can be best accomplished.

I wish to thank you in advance for helping out and appreciate your willingness to contribute to this subject.

CZmarlin --CZmarlin 02:29, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

References:

This material is based upon the paper by:

Christopher Ziemnowicz (Concord University), John E. Spillan (Penn State University - DuBois), and William “Rick” Crandall (North Carolina University - Pembroke) "Going Further With Less - a Historic Overview Of American Motors Corporation (AMC)" Presented at the 2002 Southern Management Association (SMA) annual conference that was held in Atlanta GA (6-9 Nov) http://www.southernmanagement.org/meetings/2002/SMA2002Program.pdf

The full article was published in the Southern Management Association Annual Meeting Conference Proceedings, November 2002.

The primary source of information were the company's yearly financial summary and report to stockholders:

American Motors Corporation Annual Reports, Published by AMC. The ones used for the Marlin section were the years 1960 through 1968.

Other sources:

Foster, P. (1993). American Motors, the last independent. (Krouse: Iola, Wisconsin).

Georgano, N. (1992). The American automobile, a centenary. (Smithmark: NY).

Livingston, J.A. (1967) Chapin, Romney AMC paths same - but different. Detroit News. 7/7/1967.

Mahoney, T. (1960). The story of George Romney builder, salesman, crusader, (New York: Harper & Brothers).

Meyers, G.C. (1986) When it hits the fan: Managing the nine crises of business. (Boston: Houghton Mifflin).

Moving Forward: a transportation legacy, Kenosha County Historical Society, Kenosha, Wisconsin, 1998.

Spina, T. (1965) Today it’s management men. Ward’s Quarterly, Vol. 1, Nr. 2, 64+

Okay, I can revert my deletion in the article, and add sections. It's ust that, from a glance, it looked like someone had just dumped a bunch of text from a website onto the page, while removing the info that used to be there. Mo-Al 02:31, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

WP:PNT

You listed a page to be translated into English, the Kreuzberg (disambiguation) page. I have tranlsted it into English now, and I hope you find it satisfactory. I also wish you the dearestr of luck as you clean up the onomastics category. I've seen it, and I know the task you have ahead of you. Happy to be of service, RyanGerbil10 (Drop on in!) 04:23, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Cook Islands Maori

I'm afraid this article need to be cleaned up only when you try to modify it. If you want to correct orthographic faults, you are welcome, but please if you don't know aznything about this language stop thinking that you contibutions are a necessity.

It's not orthographic faults, it's stylistic faults. The page is pretty messy, you have to admit. It's not even presented in the same format as the other language pages. I'll admit I don't know much about Polynesian languages, but I do know about IPA, and much of the work I have been doing is stylistic. Mo-Al 17:04, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't think it's messy. Language pages do not need to be presented in the same format anyway. If there are stylistic or orthographic faults, as i said you are welcome.

I recommend you take a look at WP:OWN. Also, there are some standards which Wikipedia uses, such as the infoboxes which appear on all other language pages. By the way, please sign your comments with ~~~~ Mo-Al 17:15, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the recommendation. As far as i know this article is not concerned. As i said you are welcome to help as you can, but do not delete or change things if you are not sure of it even about IPA Nevers

But I was saying I do know IPA. Besides, just because you don't think the page is messy, doesn't mean it's not messy. Mo-Al 17:34, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Agree to say that it needs an infobox. So if you want to do it...Nevers

I'm willing to later, but it still needs a cleanup tag. A lot of the article is phrased strangely too. Honestly, I'll often run into an article that needs cleanup, and think to myself "I don't really feel like cleaning this up, but if I don't add a cleanup tag, no one else will do it". That's why cleanup tags exist. I will do some cleanup work, but I'm not magical, and I can't perfect an article by myself. That's why we use the tags to notify others. Mo-Al 17:59, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Ok, i don't want an edit war too for a silly tag. But next time you add one, justify it in the talk page Nevers

Orthodox Judaism and Abortion

Abortion is a very controversial issue even within Orthodox Judaism. It's not so black-and-white. See [1] for example. Basically, it's prohibited (although according to some not to the same degree as murder, because its a different prohibition), but if the child endangers the mother's life it is in most cases permitted. --רח"ק | Talk | Contribs 04:36, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm aware of that. That's why you can't say that "Orthodox Rabbis refer to abortion as the "Silent Holocaust"; that's like saying that "Americans are Democrats". Mo-Al 05:26, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Carrot peelings

Wandering thru my watchlist, I noticed someone had found an old bit of 'stuff' hidden away in the Carrot article. Since I am interested in patterns of bad edits I went looking for when that edit got made. Now I'm totally confused, as it was you? Do you have any idea how that happened? Shenme 21:33, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

To be honest, I'm not sure how that happened, but I know that I am NOT the carrot vandal. What I suspect is that I had performed a revert on an edit which later got removed from the history (since the vandal was posting extremely obscene remarks in the edit summary), and the version I reverted to still had some "bagage". I'm honestly not sure, though. Mo-Al 21:37, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

New Pages

When are we going to see wikipages for Mircha Kefula and Shalsheles, and the other notes in the trop? --רח"ק | Talk | Contribs 19:28, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

That would be nice, actually, but Gershayim is also a punctuation mark in modern Hebrew. Mo-Al 19:31, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Americanist Phonetic Notation

Regarding a recent edit you made to the Hawaii article, please acknowledge Americanist phonetic notation. I contributed pronunciation transcriptions to the Hawaii article. At first, I used "j" for a "high front glide" (or whatever else you might want to call it, but you know what I mean). However, it bothered me, so I decided to use the "Americanist" symbol "y" instead. It's better with "y" because the Hawaii article is about the 50th state of the USA. In American usage, "y" gets the intention across better to the general reader than "j" does. Thanks. Agent X 12:46, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

I was under the impression that IPA was the official phonetic transcription scheme for WIkipedia. Frankly, I find it confusing when articles use different symbols for the same sound. Mo-Al 14:08, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

since wikipedia is not only for US citizens, using IPA would IMO be better throughout WP. Tobias Conradi (Talk) 02:32, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

ipa-N

you may be interested in

Wikipedia:Categories_for_deletion/Log/2006_August_26#Category:Writing_systems_categories

Tobias Conradi (Talk) 02:17, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Cleanup of S-U articles

As this editor is banned and currently not interfering with the cleanup, you might want to help us at Wikipedia:SU. Thanks and happy editing, Kusma (討論) 13:27, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Candidate to Wiktionary

I hope I've cleared up the confusion regarding list of common phrases in various languages's status as a candidate to wiktionary. I've archived the older discussions of the talk page so hopefully nobody mistakes an older issue for a current one. If you'd like to nominate it for movement again I think it's customary to wait a month or two longer (the vote was in September). Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 05:11, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

fyi

the game is up for deletion again. Rdore 02:41, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Wyandotte

Hi Mo-Al

Just been woken up by your banner noting that I should include 4 tildes Victuallers 11:15, 21 February 2007 (UTC) (Just to be sure!) I see you edditted History of Wyandotte, Michigan‎. I'm not an expert on this place, I was just trying to Wikify it. Reading the talk pages it appears that it is a complete "lift" from a book. But users like your self have substantially editted it. Do you have a reference? At the moment it still has "Reference" rather than "ReferenceS". If not then no worries. Victuallers 11:15, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm just formatting and trimming, I'm not adding new info. But I don't have the book it came from either. Mo-Al 18:36, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Cook Islands Maori

Hi! I see you posted Cook Islands Maori on Wikipedia:Cleanup in July 2006. I'm int he process of trying to clean out old articles fromt he list. Could you review this page and see if it still has issues? I'd do it myself, but I fear that languages are not my Forte. Thank you! --Lendorien 19:29, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Speedy deletion of Template:Georgian alphabet

A tag has been placed on Template:Georgian alphabet requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section T3 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because it is a deprecated or orphaned template. After seven days, if it is still unused and the speedy deletion tag has not been removed, the template will be deleted.

If the template is intended to be substituted, please feel free to remove the speedy deletion tag and please consider putting a note on the template's page indicating that it is substituted so as to avoid any future mistakes (<noinclude>{{transclusionless}}</noinclude>).

Thanks. --MZMcBride (talk) 05:40, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Speedy deletion of LSDJ (musician)

A tag has been placed on LSDJ (musician) requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section A7 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the article appears to be about a band, but it does not indicate how or why the subject is notable: that is, why an article about that subject should be included in an encyclopedia. Under the criteria for speedy deletion, articles that do not indicate the subject's importance or significance may be deleted at any time. Please see the guidelines for what is generally accepted as notable, as well as our subject-specific notability guideline for musical topics.

If you think that this notice was placed here in error, you may contest the deletion by adding {{hangon}} to the top of the page (just below the existing speedy deletion or "db" tag), coupled with adding a note on the talk page explaining your position, but be aware that once tagged for speedy deletion, if the article meets the criterion it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the article that would would render it more in conformance with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Polly (Parrot) 20:43, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Eşkıya Dünyaya

I noticed an old request of yours at the reference desk about a translation of this song. Here is what I came up with:

The year is 1341 I followed my own

The devil became the cause I took a life

I wrote my name in the book of murderers

A bandit cannot be a ruler of the world

Don't be sad my mother I have many worries

There is no count of how much I have suffered

None has surpassed me on the path of courageousness

A bandit cannot be a ruler of the world

A long time I endured suffering in dungeons

The inn of Sinop became our dwelling

I found help when I found an escape

A bandit cannot be a ruler of the world

From Sinop castle I flew to the sea

For three days and three nights appeared Rize

The mountains across invited us there

A bandit cannot be a ruler of the world

A detachment of troops surrounded my one side

Varilcioğlu surrounded my other side

With five hundred horsemen they blocked the road

A bandit cannot be a ruler of the world

Cheers --60.240.112.112 (talk) 09:52, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Translation

		The Israeli Barnstar of National Merit
		Thanks for translating ktiv male, good job! - Epson291 (talk) 13:14, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Motto of the day

Hello, I notice you're using one of the {{motd}} templates, run by Wikipedia:Motto of the day. You may have noticed that some of the mottos recently have been followed by a date from 2006, or on occasion simply "Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia". The reason for this is that Motto of the day is in some very serious need of help. Participation in the project, which has never been especially high, has dropped considerably over this past summer, to the point we have had several days where no motto was scheduled to appear at all. Over the past several weeks, I've been the only editor scheduling mottos at all, but there aren't enough comments on some of these mottos to justify their use. If we do not get some help - and soon - your daily mottos will stop. In order for us to continue updating these templates for you, we need your help.

When you get a chance between your normal editing, could you stop by our nominations page and leave a few comments on some of the mottos there, especially those that do not have any comments yet? This works very simply; you read a motto, decide whether or not you like it, and post your opinion just below the motto. That's it - no experience required, just an idea of what you personally like and what you feel reflects Wikipedia and its community. If you do have past experience with the project, then please close some of the older nominations once they've got a decent consensus going. There are directions on the nominations page on how to do this.

If you have any questions, please let me know, or post on the project's talk page. I'm looking forward to reading your comments on the suggested mottos, and any additional suggestions you'd like to make. Until then, happy editing! Hersfold ^(t/a/c) 01:39, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Telefol people

A proposed deletion template has been added to the article Telefol people, suggesting that it be deleted according to the proposed deletion process because of the following concern:

As is, too little context to be a useful article

All contributions are appreciated, but this article may not satisfy Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion, and the deletion notice should explain why (see also "What Wikipedia is not" and Wikipedia's deletion policy). You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{dated prod}} notice, but please explain why you disagree with the proposed deletion in your edit summary or on its talk page.

Please consider improving the article to address the issues raised because, even though removing the deletion notice will prevent deletion through the proposed deletion process, the article may still be deleted if it matches any of the speedy deletion criteria or it can be sent to Articles for Deletion, where it may be deleted if consensus to delete is reached. Passportguy (talk) 23:01, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Ok, I actually intended to improve the article anyway. I just wanted to put something up as a placeholder with a link to a source. Mo-Al (talk) 23:52, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Afro-Asiatic correspondences

Hi, I'd like to assume the 2nd Semitic *b in the table is a typo for *p, but I thought I'd check with you first.

I took the table out of Proto-Semitic BTW, that article should probably only consider PAA → PS changes, similar to how individual Semitic articles only list their individual changes. (And if there's no stable reconstruction of PAA, then a discussion of the differing views doesn't really belong to the PS article.) --Trɔpʏliʊm • blah 20:40, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I'll fix the typo. I agree that PAA -> PS would be more useful but my book deals mainly with PS. However frankly I might think that the table would make more sense in the PS article since a table of correspondences of sounds in cognates to PS phonemes is makes sense even without a reconstruction for PAA. Mo-Al (talk) 21:03, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Cenytral Morocco Tamazight

Hi, I am reviewing Central Morocco Tamazight. I think there is much good mateial in the article and that it is commendable that you have written such a comprehensive article on a language area that is otherwise very poorly represented in wikipedia. I would like to see this article make GA. However I have had to put it on hold since it has several problems that will need to be adressed for it to pass. If you are available to adress these problems within the next week I will continue the review if not I will likely have to fail it. The problems are mostly in the area of good prose, and there are some problems with comprehensiveness and unnecessary digressions as well. It seems to be well sourced although I have not yet begun verifying sources. I will start slowly building up the review today but most of the review will be made over the week. Cheers.·Maunus·ƛ· 18:54, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

It would be good if you took the time to describe the improvements you make to the article on the GA review page. Also take the time to read WP:LEAD so that you can make the lead live up to the requirements. The problems with the prose are pretty annoying and I think I will have to fail the article on criteria 1 if you don't find a way to improve it. I suggest that you find a native English speaker with interest in linguistics who'll agree to brush up the prose. ·Maunus·ƛ· 00:17, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

You are doing good work on the article - I have provided new suggestions for improvement on the review page.·Maunus·ƛ· 14:06, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

The article's GA review has now been on hold for three weeks - and very few edits have been made the last week although there are stil many unadressed suggestions for improvements on the review page. If the article is not significantly closer to GA status on monday july 13th, a month after the review process was begun , I will have to fail it for now. ·Maunus·ƛ· 19:18, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

For personal reasons I've been unable to edit for the past two weeks. I should get some good work done today and/or Sunday. Mo-Al (talk) 16:37, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Ok, Glad to see you back then. I still think the article needs much work though. I think I would reccommend de-nominating it and instead take it through a Peer-Review - you could also try to see if you could get the league of copyeditors to help you with it. Then take it to GA or even directly to FA when the concerns raised by me and by subsequent peerreviewers have been adressed. The prose problems are the major stumbling block now - the prose is too choppy and not at all easy or pleasing to read. ·Maunus·ƛ· 17:33, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

I'll take your advice. Thanks! Mo-Al (talk) 18:25, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

DYK for Central Morocco Tamazight grammar

On June 23, 2009, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Central Morocco Tamazight grammar, which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Dravecky (talk) 20:49, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

Need for a little translation

Hello Mo-Al

I am a contributor in the List of living supercentenarians article. It happens that someone found this report [2], where it seems a kind of tribute to Maria Pogonowska the oldest israelian person. None of the regular editors of this article speaks hebrew, so we don't know if this is a death report or not. I don't want a full translation of the text, I only need to know if Maria Pogonowska is dead or alive. Best regardsJapf (talk) 12:36, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

I've realized that there are many news on that page. The important one refers Pogonowska's birth year 1897. So look for the number 1897.Japf (talk) 12:39, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

That link seems to be the forum dedicated to Polish culture on www.tapuz.co.il, accessible in an easier-to-navigate form here. Assuming the Pogonowska is the same one referred to here as "Doctor Maria Pruner Pogonowska (and which says she was born in Warsaw in 1897), she died at the age of 112. Mo-Al (talk) 17:43, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Thank you very much for your precious help. Japf (talk) 17:56, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Moksha Numerals

Hi. Actually it is impossible to provide isbn for these old sources. May be book page scan can be found. Some are also mentioned | here--Numulunj pilgae 14:35, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Offer to copy edit Central Morocco Tamazight

Hi. User:Maunus referred me over here to help copy edit Central Morocco Tamazight. A few days ago I finished copy editing Missions of the Chiquitos that Maunus passed as GA. I've had a look at Central Morocco Tamazight and would love to have a go at it, if you don't mind. Thanks. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 18:29, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Whatever you would be willing to do would be extremely appreciated. Just fyi the article's prose is probably written in an extremely choppy manner, as I was basically adding to it in bits and pieces whenever I found any relevant information, but I think I've become sort of blind to it all after editing it for so long. Mo-Al (talk) 21:05, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

I've read the following articles Ottawa language, Canadian Gaelic, and Otomi language to get a sense of organizational structure in the language articles. It's best if I copy pieces from the article into my sandbox, work on the prose there, have you approve the final edits, and then move back into the article. Does that sound like a good plan to you? I'll be gone for some time today, but will return later tonight. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 17:51, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

That's perfectly fine. Mo-Al (talk) 23:30, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

I have a few questions and a few comments. Shall I post here, or on the article talk page? Truthkeeper88 (talk) 15:38, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

The article's talk page might make more sense, so that other editors can be aware of how they could help improve the article and offer any missing factual information. Mo-Al (talk) 16:44, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Sorry

I am sorry for assuming without reason that you were not a native English speaker. I think it was merely your user name which sounds sort of exotic and your interest in semitic and berber languages that gave me the idea that you weren't (and maybe the choppy prosed in the Tamazight article - but I understand thats for a different reason). I am sure truthkeeper can help you get Central Morocco Tamazight meet the GA mark - when you are nearly there give me a buzz - I would be more than happy to review it again. Sorry for assuming! And happy editing.·Maunus·ƛ· 04:11, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

No trouble. I assume my writing in the article was somewhat unnatural-sounding due to the discontinuous manner in which it was written. Mo-Al (talk) 04:21, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Uyghur

Can you rv back the Cyrillic text? The Omniglot Cyrillic sample is wrong but the chart is correct. Э is loan only, е is é, and schwa is ä/e. There are a few mistakes though like wijdan. Use the chart under orthography, I based it from Hahn which I'm sure is correct. I just can't do this since I'm on my mobile device, and sorry for my choppiness :0! Mar de Sin ^{Speak up!} 07:45, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Sure, though we need a source eventually. Mo-Al (talk) 08:03, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Any sample text in Uyghur Cyrillic will show schwas all over the place. Omniglot is simply wrong here; there is a cut-off between ignoring reliable sources in an OR fashion, and judiciously rejecting otherwise reliable sources because they are simply wrong. This is more the second case. rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 11:42, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Fair enough, but it does need a source eventually. I believe you two completely, but if a relatively uninformed reader comes along and looks at the article, they'll have no idea where we're getting our data from. Mo-Al (talk) 18:30, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Re: WP:HE

Hi Mo-Al! Good point about those words (and many more). There are still some cases where it's pronounced /a/, like in Zoharim (lights), etc. I will amend the guideline accordingly. —Ynhockey ^(Talk) 10:38, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

welcome in aramic

בקשר ל-Reference_desk כתבת נכון, תוכל לראות כאן. אגב, איך אתה יודע כל כך הרבה שפות? --ישראל קרול (talk) 00:17, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

תודה בשבל העזרה. ובעצם אני רק יכול לדבר באנגלית ובעברית. אני מתעניין בשפות אבל קשה לי למצוא את הזמן והסבלנות ללמוד שפה אחת עד שאני יכול להביע את עצמי ברהיטות. Mo-Al (talk) 03:38, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Hebrew grammar

Hi Mo-Al! I've found the article Hebrew grammar over on the July 2007 articles to be copyedited list. Since I've recently copyedited a couple of language articles I thought I'd give it try, but may need some help. Do you mind if I ask for help, should I get stuck; or alternatively, would you like to take a shot at this first, as your expertise is much greater than mine, and then I can clean up the prose if necessary. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 21:15, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

I'd certainly be willing to help. Do you know of any articles on grammars of specific languages which are currently high-quality? It would be useful to have a reference for what the format of an article of this type should be like. Mo-Al (talk) 21:37, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

The only one I know of is Otomi grammar that Maunus created. I don't think he's completed it. The Hebrew grammar looks fairly comprehensive and I'm not sure why it's on the list, but it would be nice to get it cleaned up and take off the template. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 21:55, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Well my first concern regarding this article is the phonetic transcription. Oriental Hebrew has the phonemes /ħ, ʕ/, which have merged into /χ, ʔ/ in non-Oriental Hebrew, and Oriental Hebrew also has /e/ and gemination in places where non-Oriental Hebrew does not. I'm not sure how much of this should be included. The article seems to go for a strange compromise by notating /ħ/ but nothing else, which doesn't make much sense to me. (By the way, my impression is that the majority of Israelis, especially younger speakers, are non-Oriental in speech.) Your input on this issue would be appreciated. Mo-Al (talk) 08:20, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Actually, this is being resolved currently, so I don't think we need to worry about it. Mo-Al (talk) 22:07, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Question

What is the meaning of your statement that "there is no phonemic shva in modern Hebrew"? Debresser (talk) 18:07, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

I may have meant to write "phonetic" instead of "phonemic", but I think this is still a true statement. Phonetically the sound [ə] doesn't exist in Modern Hebrew, replaced by [e] or null, and phonologically I see no reason why one would need to posit the existence of a separate phoneme /ə/ rather than explaining e-null alternations morphologically. Mo-Al (talk) 08:15, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

It meant the phonetic side of things. Isn't there a [ə] in a word like "lecha" (to you)? Debresser (talk) 08:56, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

No. In Modern Israeli Hebrew it's pronounced /leˈχa/. I can give you citations for that if you want. Mo-Al (talk) 16:55, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

What is the difference? I am not familiar with phonetic writing, just a little. But I do' speak Hebrew, and from what I seem to remember, that is a real shva. Could you give examples from English perhaps? Debresser (talk) 21:04, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

I also speak Hebrew. The difference isn't totally contrastive in English since you don't really have [e] in unstressed syllables or [ə] in stressed syllables. However if you listen to the sound files at close-mid front unrounded vowel and mid central vowel you should see that the vowel in "lecha" sounds more like the former. Mo-Al (talk) 03:56, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

It is as I suspected. The pronunciation of "lecha" doesn't come close to the sound file at close-mid front unrounded vowel but is precisely like in mid central vowel. So it should be "ləˈχa". You said you have citations saying otherwise? Debresser (talk) 10:11, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

The one I was thinking of is the article in the Handbook of the IPA. The article Hebrew phonology agrees with me also, and I think there was a long discussion about this elsewhere. Out of curiosity, are you an Israeli? Because my impression is that many non-native speakers pronounce [ə] because they were taught to use it, even though it isn't found commonly in Israel. Mo-Al (talk) 21:18, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

I asked the question there. Debresser (talk) 23:24, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

I suppose we ought to take this discussion there anyway. Mo-Al (talk) 23:48, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

I added some Hebrew, an interwiki and a sound file to the question there. But I didn't add another entry, because I really wouldn't want the two of us to clutter up the discussion to such an extend that others will refrain from replying. Thanks for your understanding. Debresser (talk) 06:14, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for your help on the Chara phonology. Just noticed it! Now I can get back to work on that page! -Iudæus (talk) 01:25, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

Central Morocco Tamazight

Hello!

You asked me about the source of the map that I made, I just remember that it was on a thesis of which I had a Pdf copy on my computer. Unfortunately, I lost most of my data with my hard drive, and I don't remember anything about the thesis, except that it was about languages in Morocco. However, by recovering my data, I got an edited version on which I marked the "citadin"-Arabic dialects [3] for my personal use.

On the other hand, you can find the same information on other maps on some reliable websites such as the U-Laval page [4], or less reliable ones such as "apprendrelekabyle.com" [5].

However, some specs such as Colin consider the eastern and north-eastern areas of my map as [6], the INALCO website reports the same information [7].

The INALCO website explains the situation by the fact that "Towards the North-East, the dialects have more Rifian phonetic and grammatical features, and towards the South (High Atlas and Jebel Sargho), the dialects approach the Tachelhit, so that the border between the two dialects is very uncertain."

(Plus l’on avance vers le Nord-Est, plus les parlers présentent des traits phonétiques et grammaticaux "rifains" ; plus l’on descend vers le Sud (Haut-Atlas et Djebel Sargho), plus l’on se rapproche du chleuh, au point que la frontière entre les deux variétés est très indécise.)

If there is any way I can make a more precise map... ;)

Regards,

Omar-Toons (talk) 20:13, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply. For now I guess everything is fine. However, I'll definitely try to locate the source of that map -- it seems quite rare to come across Amazigh demographic information in that level of detail! Mo-Al (talk) 23:35, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

= CMT

Central-Morocco Tamazight

It is necessary for these changes. due to the unification all Berber Dialects Upper North and the Upper South. the Term Central Tamazight is vague; it implies that all Dialects of the Middle-Atlas, High-Atlas, Anti-Atlas, Plains and Valleys and the greater canyon area.

Tachelhit Language is a Dialect of Central Tamazight.

when one, says " CENTRAL-TAMAZIGHT" it implies to all dialects of Central Area: Morocco (Tachelhit and it's sub-dialects, Tazenatit, Tandhirit, Taseghrushenit, etc..)

If you say Central-Upper-North-Tamazight (Middle-Atlas and area) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Adrar (talk • contribs) 00:46, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

Let's carry out the discussion on your talk page. Mo-Al (talk) 18:28, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

(IRCAM - Royal Institute) Regulated a "National Standard Tamazight Language of Morocco" (TZM, ISO 639-3) . IRCAM unified all Tribe dialects of Morocco.

(IRCAM) did NOT regulated one single regional/or a Tribe dialect.

since 2001, IRCAM (The Royal institute of the Amazigh Culture) has committed it self to unify all dialects of Morocco , in order to Standardized Tamazight Language of Morocco. And IT DID (TZM Standard Tamazight , For All Morocco).

TRIBE DIALECTS : (here are SOME: tribe dialects of Morocco; used): Ayt Achtouken, Ayt Seghrouchen, Ayt Ihahan, Ayt Ntif, Tazerwalt, Ayt Hadiddu, Beni Iznacen, Ayt Igdmiwn, Ayt Ba'amran, Ayt Uwawzgit, Ait Atta, Imjjad , Ayt Yafelman, Zkara, Mtalsa, Beni Ouriarel, Beni Amret, etc....…(Rif-Highlands, Middle-Atlas, High-Atlas, Anti-Atlas)

Not true.only a few unknown authors use this term (central Morocco Tamazight) . ALL Sources and authors use the words “Middle-Atlas”.

It is Formerly Known (Middle-Atlas/Moyen-Atlas ) and the most widely used term in all sources and publishing. eg. Linguistics, Phonology, researcher etc…

REMEMBER: Berber dialects of Morocco, are base on each tribe, not a region. The term "Middle-Atlas" ; remember, it WAS use for research : to differentiate the dialects with in the region.

Each tribe has there own distinct intonation of speech. especially in (Middle-Atlas , High-Atlas, Anit-Atlas) area

Classification of Berber languages

Group 1. Atlas Languages: Tashelhit and Middle Atlas Berber

Group 2. Zenati languages: Bem Ouarayn, Rif, Chawia,

Group 3. Kabyle

Group 4. Touareg, Ghadamsi

Group 5. Zenaga of" Mauntania

Here are Some : Linguistics and Phonology: researchers and authors on Berber Language and People

Abdel Massih; Edmond Destaing; J.-M. Dugoujon and G. Philippson; Maarren G. Kossmann; Dell, Francois; Elmedlaoui, Muhammad; Louali, Naïma; Lameen, Souag. Adrar (talk 08:32, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

I think that this is a good suggestion, and I would like to rename the page. However, first let's figure out the details. Do you think "Central Atlas Tamazight" would be acceptable? Mo-Al (talk) 13:38, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Atlas Berber

There's a proposal to merge the Atlas lects of Berber, in case you're interested. — kwami (talk) 20:47, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Berber Latin alphabet

OK merci c'est juste. c'est plus correcte . Merci bcp.--196.217.203.230 (talk) 10:09, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

De rien :) Mo-Al (talk) 18:18, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Berber Latin Alphabet

Hi,

About your question on the Berber Latin Alphabet:

Sure. Check the contents of the link I provided. In the zip file go to the folder "1-5Presentacion" and then go to the PDF document called "(4) TRANSLITERACI¯N)".

http://www.melillainternet.org/general/mliltamazight/pdf%20CAMINANDO%20.zip

Also check the Berber Catalan worldlist from the University of Barcelona, which was compiled by Berber and Catalan linguists.

regards,

--Tussna (talk) 12:21, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

Hi,

Thanks for taking interest in this topic. Your point about popular usage of the alphabet is valid, but linguists' practices do count especially when their works are destined primarily for the general reader. Bear in mind that Berber is in its early stages of transformation into mass writing and publishing. So we mostly have to look at what linguists publish (dictionaries, wordlists, grammar books...). There is an incubating Berber literature which uses the Berber Latin alphabet (not identical to INALCO's version, but sometimes very close) but most of it is published in paper and isn't available online.

In Catalonia, Spain, the people who authored the Berber-Catalan wordlist are also involved in a pilot project of teaching Berber to children of Moroccan migrants. So the alphabet is indeed being used there at least.

In Melilla, Spain/north Morocco, there is also a similar education project underway. That's why the grammar manuals (link below) were compiled in the first place.

http://www.melillainternet.org/mliltamazight.html

There is the element of politics of course. Pan-Arab governments of North Africa don't want to allow Berber to be written in Latin letters, fearing it will empower it and enable it to rival Arabic and French (inside North Africa). That's why most of those Latin alphabet-based initiatives come from abroad (France-Inalco, Spain-Univ. of Barcelona...). For example, you can't find Algerian of Moroccan schoolbooks in Berber with Latin characters because they simply don't exist. So the popular use of varieties of the Berber Latin alphabet (INALCO's, and the other ones) is usually dispersed over hundreds of websites and some books and poetry/literature works here and there.

Have a look at some of these websites containing Berber texts or lists:

http://www.azawan.com/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tussna (talk • contribs) 20:40, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

http://amaynu.net/

http://www.mondeberbere.com/

"La llengua rifenya"

"Webster's Tamazight-English Thesaurus"

--Tussna (talk) 20:38, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

J' ai lu ces discussions et j' approuve que Mr Tussna milite pour propager le langages des jeunes paresseux de web facile.. Vous trouvez là un intéressant ouvrage étude de Mr boukous le président de l' institue royal culture amazigh IRCAM .. J' espere que le monsieur qui semme les fausses caractére cesse de le faire.

Clavier tamazight talatinit en ligne: [8]

--196.217.214.75 (talk) 10:37, 12 January 2011 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 196.217.214.75 (talk) 10:00, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

You know what? Since this is apparently so controversial, I'll change the article so that both sides get their say. Mo-Al (talk) 02:27, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

El male rachamim

Shalom! As your are the original author of this article, would you not agree that a full translation should be provided for these Hebrew prayer version, given this is the English Wikipedia site? Looking forward! Le'hitraot! Kvitlach (talk) 23:10, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

Today's motto

Thanks a lot! :-$ After figuring it out, I have added Number 8 signal (with appropriate redirect). --Thnidu (talk) 19:36, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

Translation

Hey are you currently still involved in English to Hebrew translations on Wikipedia? AJona1992 (talk) 21:22, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

Not so much but I can take a look if you need something translated. Mo-Al (talk) 06:30, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

Well I've been trying to create the Selena article in the Hebrew Wikipedia, but since I barely know the language the stub-article has been deleted. You don't have to do this if you don't want to. Cheers, and take care, AJona1992 (talk) 14:07, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

Okay, I've created something at he:סלינה. Mo-Al (talk) 17:33, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for taking the time to create the article, your such a big help! Take care, AJona1992 (talk) 17:53, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

Mau or miu, miit or miut?

Please answer, why according to Sir Budge an Egyptian word for cat was "mau" or it was a word for Ra's personification into a tom-cat? Why other sources give other words? Which one is more correct? Thank you in advance, -- Zara-arush (talk) 21:46, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

I'm afraid I can't answer your question completely. I will tell you that -t is a feminine suffix in Egyptian, so I imagine "miut" is a female cat and "miu" a male cat. Mo-Al (talk) 16:29, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Proto-Semitic

Just as a side-sciptum, just wanted to emphasize that my recent comment on the PS talk page was in reference to what was visible on the talk page as well as what was currently visible on the article page (as opposed to the page that was current when the original poster made his/her comment) (in short, I was knowingly being lazy and not looking at the older page, but guessing on what might have been there from what was currently available). Also, want to emphasize my appreciation for your work I have seen on other WP pages. I avoid yiddish terms (I tend to stick to Hebrew, I'm ashkenazi-avoidant like that, no offense intended), but from what I have observed, your are a real mensch (do they have a mensch barnstar? they should). — al-Shimoni (talk) 14:08, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Thank you very much :) My range of knowledge is pretty narrow, so I'm glad someone finds what I'm doing useful. But in any case, I wouldn't take my old comments too seriously. Mo-Al (talk) 22:50, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Niqqudot

You interest in the alepbeyt wouldn't extend to the other systems of niqqudot, would it (Babylonian, Samaritan, etc)? I know WP is in need of elaborating on these other systems, but the information available to me i not too great. — al-Shimoni (talk) 12:28, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

I have been meaning to add information about these systems, as well as cleaning up the Tiberian article. I'll try to get to that soon. Mo-Al (talk) 16:28, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. :) — al-Shimoni (talk) 07:13, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

I, just now, noticed that you had added articles for the Tiberian, Babylonian, and Samaritan systems (created soon after the above conversation, many months ago). Wanted to express appreciation to you for these additions to WP. :) — al-Shimoni (talk) 10:02, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

Vowel Reflexes

Was looking at your new addition with the vowel reflexes. I like it. But, I was wondering if it was possible to somehow indicate the Tiberian niqqud that the vowel is representing in each case where the Tiberian IPA vowel is indicated. The problem is, I don't really see any elegant way of doing that. I guess the niqqud could represent a group of cells, which would be accurate on the one hand in that each of those reflexes are represented in the Tiberian system with a particular sign (although their sounds are/may-be different). But on the other hand, it would be inaccurate as the non-Tiberian versions did not use the Tiberian niqqudot. I think having the Tiberian niqqud shown in some way would be helpful, especially if a reader isn't sure which Tiberian tradition is used (ie, Ashk/Seph/Yemn/etc.), but other reasons too. What thoughts do you have on this? — al-Shimoni (talk) 09:52, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps it would make more sense to explain how vowels were indicated graphically in the orthography section... Mo-Al (talk) 16:40, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

This is similar to what I've been trying to get at long-windedly at Talk:Biblical Hebrew. Our two separate lists/charts at Biblical Hebrew and niqqud ("Proto-Hebrew [u] has the following Tiberian reflexes" + "The Tiberian niqqud have the following phonological values") are left to the reader to be combined logically. Somewhere it would be appropriate to answer the question more straightforwardly, "How do you get from the Hebrew word as it is printed in BHS and the pronunciations taught in textbooks to a reconstructed pronunciation?"

Let me repeat my thanks for your interest & responsiveness here on your personal talk page! Wareh (talk) 22:29, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

I would like to make it possible for a reader to figure this out; my concern is doing this without showing bias towards Tiberian Hebrew vis-a-vis the other traditions. I intend to add a chart in the orthography section that clarifies the phonetic values of the niqqud in the various traditions. Mo-Al (talk) 01:22, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

The Barnstar of Diligence

For your ongoing improvements to the encyclopedia's treatment of Biblical Hebrew phonology, and for your willingness to pay such careful attention to your readers' comments along the way. If every article had someone so helpful reading the talk page comments and thinking about how to turn them into improvements, we would grow quite spoiled, and our progress would hurtle forward! Wareh (talk) 17:44, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Your GA nomination of Biblical Hebrew

Hello, I just wanted to introduce myself and let you know I am glad to be reviewing the article Biblical Hebrew you nominated for GA-status according to the criteria. This process may take up to 7 days. Feel free to contact me with any questions or comments you might have during this period. – Quadell ^(talk) 19:06, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

Incidentally, I note that the lead of the Hebrew language article links Classical Hebrew and Biblical Hebrew separately, though one is now redirected to the other. Should this be reworded in the Hebrew Language article? If so, how? All the best, – Quadell ^(talk) 19:10, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

The term "Classical Hebrew" may or may not include Mishnaic Hebrew as well as Biblical Hebrew; I'll try to make that clear in the Biblical Hebrew article. Mo-Al (talk) 08:13, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

I have finished the review, and it is now on-hold, awaiting the resolution of a few remaining issues. You have already fixed most of the issues I have identified, so there is only a little left, and I have no doubt you'll take care of it soon. Thanks a lot! – Quadell ^(talk) 12:11, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Hebrew Language Article

I'm not terribly certain that this article should be broken up or not. What I am sure of is that the plethora of arcane items seems a might excessive. I've studied Biblical Hebrew for many years and am far from a whiz-bang. I'm better at Koine` and able to read and understand the general gist of things in it. Ivrit is another matter. One of the things I found a little difficult in this entry is the organization and lack of hyperlinked arcane terms. I now must try to install several language aids I don't have in order to really understand the glyphs that came through as ? & O's.

Ivrit is the love of my life even though I am a rank hacker. One of my great interests is learning more about ancient proto Ivrit. What always annoys me are assertions that TORAH was handed down orally to the Cohanim. Moses as a son of Pharoah would have of necessity learned to read, write, and speak at least two to four different languages: Ivrit from his real family until he was weaned about age three;Exodus 2: 8-10; "Bible History" Book 2 Chap 3 pg 158 Edersheim, Alfred A., Hendrickson Publishers, copyright 1995. Egyptian because he was legally in line to become Pharoah; ibid, Canaanitic-Assyrian for commerce and Cushite Ethiopic should one accept Flavius Josephus Antiq. II.10.1&2 along with several earlier Greek and Roman writers of which I forget their names and am unable to give a citation for. The very idea that Moses could easily converse with the high priest of Midyan indicates either a high paucity of actual deviation of the languages involved, a highly developed sign language like unto the Native Americans, or an incredible linguistic ability of Moses or a combination thereof in the late 17th Century BCE; see "Sepher HaYasher Chap 67:17-41. Also according to Sepher HaYasher, Avraham sat at the feet of Noach and Shem (Malki-Tzedek) as a young man; 9:4-6. The Chronology works. Yet the Bavel account clearly tells us that no one could understand each other. We have in fact many thousands of baked clay documents from the 4th Millenia BCE clearly showing that amongst the educated classes there was very little difficulty translating one to another. My gut instinct is that while the people might not be able to actually speak Summerian they like myself with koine`could read Summerian. The geminate and regular tri-consonantal roots are the most fascinating and sheerly stupendous feature of Ivrit, and to me a major clue to to solving the puzzle. As Dr. Danny Ben Gigy points out if you understand the word picture of the consonants you can divine the root's basic thrust. That is true Godlike genius, and means that all users of tri-consonantal word pictures could permit and probably did converse in one form or another. The entire language is pure genius of adaptation. And no, I do not believe Moshe stumbled upon the High Priest of Midian by accident. Either Amram or Yochaved told Moshe where his distant kinsman could be found. *see Sepher Hayasher 67:17-41* These omissions of reality are rather bothersome in several supposedly scholarly works. When we trace back Jacob, Isaac, and Avraham we always find they had no difficulty conversing in Chaldean, Canaanite. or Egyptian. Again linguistic genius, a lingua franca of pidgin dialect, or sign language? Okay, please forgive me for running off on that tangent.

I would really have liked to see the changing alephbet comparisons of the tri-consonantal languages according to the word picture idea. Not being a linguist of any sort, it would be of great help to me. Lastly in my ben Asher Leningrad text, are numerous references to the gaya? Hunh? What's that? Is that sort of like the ancient letter ghayin?

If I may be permitted, may I suggest simply slightly altering the format into separate sections with a little more detail in the foggy areas. Sort of like, tell me what you are going to say; then tell me what you have to say; and lastly tell me what what you have said in each area. I really would liked to have had more information and examples in a number of areas. But please let me be clear, I really enjoyed reading the various stages and forms Ivrit has gone through. I would like them clarified a little for goy idiots, such as myself. But I really got a handle for the first time on how incorrect my understanding of Ivrit was. That was a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path. And I am very grateful for the article. hsd24.239.28.229 (talk) 04:13, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Hopefully the articles will improve to your liking in the near future. Also, the term ga'ya is a synonym for the Hebrew punctuation mark meteg. Mo-Al (talk) 04:28, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Sorry to butt in on your Talk page, but I thought I would add some thoughts: I'm fairly sure the article will be improving quite a bit in the near future (especially if Mo-Al has interest in improving it — a little more unsolicited praise for the work you do). Right now the Hebrew Language article is in quite a bit of a transition as it's focus was changed not too long ago, and what was contained there before had been moved to another article with a narrower focus.

Regarding the request for changing alphabet comparison, if you are referring to the alphabet itself, the Hebrew Alphabet article does this partly, however it doesn't currently directly reference the original pictographs from which the letters are based (some of those pictographs we have an idea of what they looked like, but many are currently still guesswork — Brian Colless (sp?) has done quite a bit in recent years on this, however there are a couple of his proposals I, myself, don't think he is correct on). If you look at articles for the individual letters, they use to depict (the|a few) proposed pictographs from which the letters derived (I believe Mr. Colless's work was the basis of these). I haven't looked at those pages for a while, but a quick glance at a couple pages just now showed that dalet, and heh still have these.

If you are referring to triconsonantal roots meaning being derived from a combination of pictographs to convey that meaning, I don't think you will likely find this in Wikipedia at any point in the near future. There is a person who has done his own original "research" who proposes this idea, but his view is considered fringe, and nearly all scholars do not believe there is anything to support his idea. Many of his proposed pictographic "etymologies" are a bit of a stretch of the imagination, and wouldn't be plain and obvious to someone who had just encountered a pictographic word. So, for now, I don't think his work is eligible for Wiki inclusion.

Hopefully this was helpful to you. — al-Shimoni (talk) 17:51, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

The Tireless Contributor Barnstar

You have done some amazing work this year in bringing the Biblical Hebrew article from its previous decrepit state up to it's new GA status. I am deeply impressed with how you have improved this article, and how well you have responded to all kinds of input from me and others. Wikipedia needs more expert editors like yourself, and I hope you continue to improve articles on this and related topics. All the best, – Quadell (talk) 20:21, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Habibi Yah Habibi

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ASL peer review

You're welcome! And I'm not quite done yet ... Daniel Case (talk) 04:18, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

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"reportedly"

No need to add the needless word "reportedly" into wp sentences. Everything in wp is "reportedly." Thanks.--Epeefleche (talk) 20:15, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Boston Marathon bombing

Formatting - I've got a discussion started on the article's talk page. Please don't change the article's formatting without first discussing it there. Rklawton (talk) 20:53, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Re:Somali language

Hi Middayexpress,

I wanted to ask about the "History" section in the Somali language article which you removed on this edit: [9] I'm unclear on why this doesn't belong in the article -- other well-maintained language articles (e.g. Swedish language) have a history section, and in the case of Somali the profound historical influence of Arabic and the unique literacy situation seem highly relevant. I would appreciate your input.

Thank you, Mo-Al (talk) 18:42, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

Hi Mo-Al. The material on historic trade between populations in the Horn and Yemeni and Omani merchants is off-topic. It has nothing to do with the Somali language. Further, the national campaign for a standard orthography belongs on and is already discussed in the Somali orthography article. Arabic's influence on Somali is also already mentioned in the vocabulary section. Regards, Middayexpress (talk) 18:52, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for the response. However, it would seem that the trade between Somali and Arab merchants is relevant since it is the cause of the language contact between Somali and Arabic (according to my understanding, which may be incorrect). Additionally, the historical development of Somali literacy seems notable enough to merit inclusion in this article as well as in the Somali orthography page. However, that's just my admittedly fallible judgment.

The bigger issue here is that the "History" section seems to be standard in Featured and Good Article-status language pages (see Swedish language, Tamil language, Biblical Hebrew, etc.) I'd like to get this article to Good Article status, and the absence of this section could be an issue during review. I agree though that it should be kept notable and non-redundant. Perhaps we could consolidate historical information from other sections, or add some new information. Do you have thoughts on how would be best to do this? Mo-Al (talk) 20:08, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

The campaign above was on choosing a standard orthography/writing system for the Somali language from among the existing or would be writing systems, not on literacy per se. This info on the various writing scripts (such as Osmanya, Borama and Kaddare, the undeciphered ancient Somali script notwithstanding) was already in the article. However, you moved it and the links pointing to those writing script pages to the separate Somali orthography page, and replaced it with a cogent summary. It was a good decision, as it turns out. Regarding the historical material on social contacts, it's already mentioned in the vocabulary section that the Arabic loan-words in Somali stem from the Somali people's social, cultural, commercial and religious links and contacts with nearby populations in the Arabian peninsula. Passed that, we start to wander off-topic and into territory covered by the Ajuuraan State, Adal Sultanate, Ifat Sultanate, Walashma dynasty, Warsangali Sultanate, Majeerteen Sultanate and Sultanate of Hobyo articles. Similarly, discussing the history of the Somali language beyond what is already mentioned on the north-to-south migration that is responsible for its modern distribution delves into territory on the origins of the Somali ethnic group itself as well as the complicated etymology of the ethnonym "Somali". This is the domain of the Somali people article, where it is likewise already discussed. Regards, Middayexpress (talk) 22:00, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

Okay, I agree that we should avoid redundancy. I guess the ideal would be to mention how far back materials in Somali can be dated, how vigorously it was used throughout history, etc. Do you think that this would be appropriate? Mo-Al (talk) 01:04, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

That depends on what exactly you mean by how vigorously it was used. The oldest existing documents in Somali date back several centuries and are in Wadaad's writing (like this 14th century stone tablet from the Ajuuraan period). This is one of the things that was moved to the Somali orthography page. There's also the undeciphered ancient Somali script, of which the Royal Geographical Society of Great Britain, among various others, found inscriptions. According to Somalia's former Ministry of Information and National Guidance, this "lost" script represents the earliest written attestation of Somali. Middayexpress (talk) 14:00, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

Load words, main areas spoken

Hi. Please note that per Template:Infobox language, this parameter is reserved for "countries in which it is mainly spoken". That would not include Ethiopia much less Kenya, where Somali and other Cushitic tongues represent a tiny fraction of spoken languages. In this edit, you also write that "the number of loan words in a dictionary is not significant without context". However, ironically enough, you completely removed that context when you deleted a) the actual number of loanwords in the newer Somali language dictionary vs. the older one, b) the names and dates of those dictionaries, and c) the fact that those loan words were from a fellow Afro-Asiatic language. Kindly explain your reasoning here because as it is, it doesn't make any sense. Regards, Middayexpress (talk) 16:53, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Hi Middayexpress.

The Somali Region is quite populous and appears to contain at least half the number of Somali-speakers as does Somalia. Somalis in Kenya are also fairly populous and spread over a large region, though their numbers are somewhat lower. Note that the featured language article Swedish language includes Finland in this field.

As for the loanword section -- the number of loanwords in a dictionary isn't a meaningful number without knowing how many words are in the dictionary as a whole, or what the criteria are for inclusion in said dictionary. The raw number is fairly meaningless. The names and dates of the dictionaries aren't needed because the reference style we're using has names and dates in the footnotes rather than in the article text. It's not clear why Arabic being an Afro-Asiatic language is relevant to the vocabulary section, though if you want to add it back I'm not strongly opposed.

Best. Mo-Al (talk) 17:14, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

The number of Somali speakers in Ethiopia is comparable to that found in Yemen. Kenya has even fewer. Despite this, Yemen is not listed in the infobox among the areas where Somali is "native to" (what the parameter actually states on the page proper). This is presumably because the language isn't native to that country. Somali is likewise not native to Kenya, as Somali emigration to that largely Bantu and Nilotic-speaking nation only began in the 19th century. Yemeni contacts are, in comparison, much older and considerably more extensive. Regarding the loanwords, the purpose was to show that the number of Arabic loanwords in Somali has actually decreased over the years, not increased. I can cite the total number of words that are in the dictionary as a whole, if you prefer. The dictionaries will have to be mentioned by name, though, so readers know which exact works are being referred to. Regards, Middayexpress (talk) 17:52, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps Yemen should be listed as well, if the Somali-speaking population is so numerous. Note that the featured language article Tamil language includes a number of places where Tamil was imported in the 19th century.

The article currently states that the number of loanwords has decreased with a citation, so this should be sufficient. The number of words in a particular dictionary of the language is somewhat tangential to this point, and probably doesn't need to be included.

Best, Mo-Al (talk) 18:12, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Yemen, let alone Kenya, obviously cannot be listed as a nation where the Somali language is "native to" for the simple fact that it is not native to that country. If a similar situation exists on the Tamil language infobox, it too should be corrected, not reproduced on another page. Regarding the loanwords, the page states that "Arabic loan words were more extensively used in older Somali literature than in modern Somali". However, this is not what the source asserts. It says that Arabic loanwords were more extensive in the Somali language as a whole, not just in its literature. It also attempts to quantify just how extensive those lexical borrowings were in the past vs. the present, a significant difference. Regards, Middayexpress (talk) 18:43, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

I think the Tamil page demonstrates that the term "native" could include groups whose history stretches back for a period of about two centuries. The term "native" is fairly nebulous and as such I think we should stick to the standard set by that page.

I'll correct the page to indicate that the words were more extensive in the language. However I doubt the numbers themselves belong on the page.

Best, Mo-Al (talk) 19:06, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

It's better to follow Wikipedia's actual template instructions than the edits of another Wikipedian on another page. No worries regarding the vocab issue; I'll fix it later. Regards, Middayexpress (talk) 19:15, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

The question is what the word "native" means. The Tamil article demonstrates that it includes the situation in Ethiopia, Kenya, and Yemen. Therefore it seems that this *is* following the template instructions. (Also, I fixed the vocab issue along with expanding that section.) Mo-Al (talk) 19:19, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

The parameter's meaning is defined on Template:Infobox language, not the Tamil page. It states that this parameter is reserved for "countries in which it is mainly spoken". That would not include Ethiopia or Yemen, and certainly not Kenya. At any rate, I've fixed a few inaccuracies. For starters, Somalia is definitely not ethnically homogeneous. That's a line the former communist government used to use to unify the populace, but it's not at all true. There are actually many different ethnic groups besides ethnic Somalis (e.g. Bajuni). The low bound estimate of ethnic Somalis in fact sometimes goes as low as 60%. Also, please note that there obviously was Somali word for "blue" before Somalis adapted "buluug" from the English blue. Per Larajasse (1897), it was madow 'adan. Lastly, Somali language instruction certainly did not begin in the 1970s. For example, Osman Yusuf Kenadid, who invented the Osmanya script, was teaching his pupils to write in Somali as far back as the 1920s (his script was for Somali). There are much earlier examples as well. Wadaad's writing is likewise in Somali. It just uses a modified Arabic script. Regards, Middayexpress (talk) 20:18, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

This indeed includes Ethiopia, since millions of Somali speakers live there. It probably does include Kenya as well. The Tamil page is a featured article, which means that we can use it as a guide.

The homogeneity statement is sourced. Please find a source for your statement.

The national language education campaign certainly began in the 1970s.

Best, Mo-Al (talk) 20:24, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps, but the fact remains that the Tamil page is not what defines the infobox's parameters. Its actual template documentation does. The homogeneity statement is wrong, as explained. The new conservative estimate is around 80%-85% (e.g. [10]). And it too is a likely overestimation since it is counting many non-Somali, assimilated peoples as ethnically Somali due to the widespread practice of shegaad (client adoption) by Somali clans. Also, Kenadid was obviously not the only Somali language instructor of his day. In the pre-colonial period, pupils were taught in either Somali or Arabic or both. Regards, Middayexpress (talk) 20:40, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

I agree, let's go by the infobox. "Mainly" means places where many speakers reside. This definitely includes Ethiopia, and maybe also Kenya and Yemen.

This doesn't contradict the article, which says that 95% *speak* Somali. 80% still qualifies as "relatively ethnically homogeneous".

By the way, regarding buluug, there is a difference between being able to express a color in a language and having a single word for it. For example, in Japanese one could say momoiro 'peach-colored' for 'pink', but linguists would not say that they really had a native word for 'pink'. This is basically why Japanese borrowed the English word 'pink' as pinku.

Best, Mo-Al (talk) 20:46, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Actually, what it states is that "Somalia itself is relatively ethnically homogeneous, unlike many other African countries, and Somali is spoken by 95% of its inhabitants". This is false. Somalia is not ethnically homogeneous, though this has been erroneously asserted many times (see here). At any rate, this off-topic material. You also again removed the assertion that "Soravia (1994) noted a total of 1,436 Arabic loanwords in Agostini a.o. 1985, a prominent 40,000-entry Somali dictionary. Most of the terms consisted of commonly-used nouns. These lexical borrowings may have been more extensive in the past since a few words that Zaborski (1967:122) observed in the older literature were absent in Agostini's later work.". What gives? Regards, Middayexpress (talk) 20:58, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

If a sourced claim is false, you must find a source that directly contradicts that claim. You have not done so yet.

The claim is not off-topic because it is relevant to the linguistic homogeneity of the country.

The article already states that about 20% of the vocabulary is Arabic. Why is the fact that a particular dictionary of the language contained 1,436 Arabic loanwords out of 40,000 relevant? These numbers themselves are not inherently relevant except for the percentage they imply, which is already stated in the article.Mo-Al (talk) 21:01, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

I have not cited a source that debunks the claim that "Somalia itself is relatively ethnically homogeneous, unlike many other African countries", eh? Look again [11]:

"Backed by the nationalist ideology of politicians, it has been a common assumption of scholars of Somalia that Somalia is ethnically homogenous, and that the Somali people share one religion and culture. Thus it had been held that Somalia is a prototype of the nation-state in Africa. The apparent absurdity of the civil war which Somalia has suffered since 1990 raises questions about this perception which has subsequently been revealed to be a myth that has been created in a nationalist undertone."

The loanword percentage is obviously relevant because it illustrates the decreasing trend in Arabic loanwords in Somali. That's why the book it was drawn from made the comparison in the first place.

Further, the template parameter is reserved for "countries in which it is mainly spoken". On the page proper, it also states that these are areas where the language is "native to". Kenya et al. cannot remain, unless one wants to give the misimpression that Somali is at once "mainly spoken" and "native to" those areas when it obviously is not. Middayexpress (talk) 21:14, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

By the way, I've contacted another one of the more active WikiProject Somalia editors about this issue. Hopefully, he can help sort this out. Regards, Middayexpress (talk) 21:14, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Great, since you have a source, I recommend incorporating it into the article. It's not a good idea to just delete sourced material without adding something in its place that explains why the former claim was wrong, since this leaves a gap with no explanation attached.

The numbers themselves don't illustrate this trend. They only illustrate the modern frequency of loanwords. The trend was cited without numerical data behind it.

I think we are arguing about what "native" means. I agree that it would be wise to get a third opinion. Mo-Al (talk) 21:21, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

How "ethnically homogeneous" Somalia is completely WP:OFFTOPIC. It has nothing to with the properties of the Somali language. As such, it doesn't belong at all on the page. The loanword figure does illustrate the decreasing trend in Arabic loanwords. The book it was drawn from itself states as much. According to the American Heritage Dictionary, "native" means "originating, growing, or produced in a certain place or region; indigenous" [12]. That, again, would obviously not include Kenya et al. Middayexpress (talk) 21:34, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Fine, let's remove the ethnically homogeneous comment.

Perhaps it would be wiser to use the region= field to bypass this issue. Note that the infobox page says that this "is not for the broader region where the states are located, but rather the regions within the country, or across countries, where it is spoken." So instead of "Horn of Africa", maybe the region field should say something like "Somalia, Djibouti, Somali Region, Eastern Kenya". (This might also avoid the whole Somaliland debate since it's referring to a geographical region rather than political entities.) Mo-Al (talk) 21:43, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

The geographic region (singular) in this case would be the Horn of Africa. That would indeed resolve the Somaliland issue. But I'm also not opposed to the format above, though for Kenya the parameter would instead point to the North Eastern Province. Middayexpress (talk) 21:56, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Okay. I'm wary of just saying "Horn of Africa" because this doesn't make clear that Somali is not spoken in much of Ethiopia or Kenya. So I guess we should use the format above. And yes, good call with the North Eastern Province. Mo-Al (talk) 22:03, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

We'd also probably have to also list Puntland and the other major Somalian regions, or we'd end up again with Somaliland juxtaposed by Somalia, while the Somali Region of Ethiopia and the North Eastern Province of Kenya (which both historically also had secessionist movements; Ethiopia still does) are treated differently. Middayexpress (talk) 22:08, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

I'm not an expert on Somali politics, so I can't get involved in that issue. Mo-Al (talk) 22:12, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Then how do you propose we resolve the Kenya et al. issue? Somali is certainly not native there. Middayexpress (talk) 22:15, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

By using the region= field. The Somaliland issue will be an issue no matter which field you use. So might as well solve the other issues by switching to region=. Mo-Al (talk) 22:17, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

By using the region parameter in its traditional, singular way, the Somaliland issue wouldn't be a problem because the parameter would simply state Horn of Africa. It would also resolve the Kenya et al. matter. Middayexpress (talk) 22:28, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Well, the infobox page does say that this field "is not for the broader region where the states are located". Wouldn't that make it impossible to just state "Horn of Africa"? Mo-Al (talk) 22:35, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Ah, I see where you're referring to. By the looks of it, the region parameter is indeed not set aside for the broader region, but rather for regions within the country itself: "region=geographic region in which it is mainly spoken ← you do not have to define both this and states; use this parameter for a single statement about geographic distribution. It is not for the broader region where the states are located, but rather the regions within the country, or across countries, where it is spoken. (That is, do not add SE Asia if we state it's in Laos, or West Africa if we state it's in Mali.)" Also note that the states parameter is for countries in which it is mainly spoken with "multigenerational communities". Middayexpress (talk) 22:44, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

I suppose all the listed countries do have "multigenerational communities". But if you'd rather not stick with the states= field, then I guess we should switch to region=. Mo-Al (talk) 23:21, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Nilo-Saharan

Somali's general realtionship with other languages in the Ethiopian Language Area is more informative than one syntactical commonality it may have with a few Nilo-Saharan languages. Somali is also head-final according to Saeed and most specialists, which Heine and Nurse are not (c.f. [13]). Middayexpress (talk) 19:15, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

Adjectives follow nouns in Somali (e.g. ninka dheer). This is *unlike* Amharic (e.g. təgu tämariʷočč). This is an important detail which Heine and Nurse are pointing out, even though they agree that Somali is *mostly* head-final, and they are totally correct. Therefore Somali's syntax in this regard is more like some Nilo-Saharan languages than Amharic. Mo-Al (talk) 19:23, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

There is no shortage of material which asserts otherwise. If you'll notice, Heine's map also includes the entire Horn region as SOV, but only a tiny portion of the Nilo-Saharan speech area [14]. So if a comparison is to be made here, it's first and foremost with other related languages in the Afro-Asiatic family, not an entirely seperate phylum. Middayexpress (talk) 19:39, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

Also note Wedekind: "Cushitic languages as well as the Semitic languages of East Africa typically have the order Subject-Object-Verb (SOV), and are "head final"." Middayexpress (talk) 19:47, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

I agree. BUT the adjective goes after the noun in Somali. This is NOT a contradiction. Mo-Al (talk) 19:53, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

According to Saeed, the verbal group in Somali is a head-final phrase while noun phrases are head-initial. Middayexpress (talk) 20:33, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

Exactly. That's the point that Heine and Nurse were making. Mo-Al (talk) 20:50, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

One thing's certain, it's misleading to insist that this characteristic is typical of Nilo-Saharan languages in general when their map quite clearly shows that most Nilo-Saharan languages are not even SOV to begin with. No worries though; I'll fix that later. Middayexpress (talk) 21:13, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

I changed it to "among some languages of the Nilo-Saharan phylum". If you want you can tweak the wording. (I'm not sure which languages Heine and Nurse are referring to, but it seems likely that they are ones which have had contact with Cushitic.) Mo-Al (talk) 21:18, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

They mention Kanuri. Whatever the case, it's not any more informative than indicating that such and such unrelated Indo-European language also shares the same feature. They also don't state that this pattern is not a general characteristic of the Ethiosemitic languages. They say that "Ethiopian Semitic languages occupy an intermediate position between type D1 and type D2" [15]. Middayexpress (talk) 21:27, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

It's relevant from a typological perspective, which is why they wrote it in the first place.

This is what I meant by "not a general characteristic".

Best, Mo-Al (talk) 21:30, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

Fine, to avoid argument I'll remove the Nilo-Saharan statement. However I have another citation for the Ethiosemitic claim which I will add right now. Mo-Al (talk) 21:37, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

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