Talk:Chris Benoit/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Archive 4

Archive 5

The Crippler Crossface

In the Personal life, where it says Benoit's Crossface was borrowed from Dean Malenko, this is actually true because during the Benoit tribute last night, Malenko even said himself that he allowed Benoit to borrow it as he was trying to find a submission move he could use as a finisher. I'm not sure how that would be cited, but Malenko's words during the tribute does prove it. vDub 12:29, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Benoit also talked about it on the Hard Knocks DVD, to the best of my recollection. Garistotle 12:39, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

The 4:01 June 25th edit

If you look through the history of Beniot's page, you can see an edit over 18 hours before his death was announced saying he missed Sunday night's event because of the rumored death of his wife. I have not read any legit sources that suggest anyone knew about his wife's death prior to his, but that edit looks somewhat cryptic now. How could an editor have known that his wife was dead 18 hours before the story broke that his family was dead? Wesleymullins 04:37, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Yeah that is kind of really odd... Shows as the 10:01 edit for me, but ehh, still was before the 2:30 discovery of the bodies. Very weird. Also to view it click here -- Shatterzer0 04:52, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

That's 4:01 GMT. I think that would be 12:01 a.m. Eastern Daylight Savings Time. Or 14 and a half hours before the bodies were reported discovered. Rklawton 05:09, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Just to add to this craziness, I looked up the IP and it comes from Stamford, Connecticut; which happens to be where WWE headquarters are located. I thought this was too weird not to mention. Trvr3307 05:33, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Don't make up crap, you don't have CheckUser, thus you don't have access to see editors IP addresses, and second IP addresses have not been editing the article for a while now. — Moe ε 05:44, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I do apologize, I am fairly new here (I have had an account for awhile, never got into much though). I went to the link above: here and saw the IP address. I pasted it into a free service: here and it said it came from Stamford. I am sorry if I did something wrong here, but I thought it was note-worthy. Trvr3307 05:50, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

No, you've done nothing wrong, just it's not noteworthy. This talk is for improving the article. Thank you! — Moe ε 05:52, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

It's probably vandalism based off of the "family emergency" claim. It still may be worth looking into. --David Bixenspan 05:33, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Coming from Stamford? That sure should raise some eyebrows. Is there any way we can get some higher ups to look over this? It's quite disturbing and could be quite interesting at the same time. --Raderick 05:44, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

It was re-added by someone w/ an Australian IP a few minutes after it was reverted, so probably spoofed and nothing to do w/ WWE/Stamford. Of course, it's still suspicious, just differently so. --David Bixenspan 05:48, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

No, it's not coming from Stanford, and no, CheckUser isn't going to be performed for our own little investigation. — Moe ε 05:49, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Why not? It's certainly warranted even though it's most likely a sad coincidence. --David Bixenspan 05:52, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

And we still might want to give Office a heads up on this since the posts appear to have happened before Chris' death. Rklawton 05:53, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Rubbish. It's not what this is for. Period. If this is what you came to Wikipedia to do, then I suggest you not stay. — Moe ε 05:55, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree, someone should look into it. And I think Moe should calm down, you seem like a angry person, just relax, dont have a heart attack..BigCoop 05:57, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Seconded. Indeed, it appears that he is opposed to even giving Office a heads up. Rklawton 05:58, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

IP Address	Country (Short)	Country (Full)	Flag	Region	City	ISP	Source
69.120.111.23	US	UNITED STATES		CONNECTICUT	STAMFORD	OPTIMUM ONLINE (CABLEVISION SYSTEMS)	IP2 Location (Free)

-- Hornetman16 05:59, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I added this string because it was totally deleted and does not even appear in the archives. This information belongs in the public record. Feel free to move it to the archives, but it is an interesting read. Wesleymullins 03:30, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

The 4:01 June 25th post

That string needs to be returned. This place is not a democracy, but when everyone else disagrees with you, Moe, you should consider for a second that you might be wrong. That's a legit discussion to have (Wesleymullins 06:38, 26 June 2007 (UTC))

Then they can take it to the admin's noticeboard or to OFFICE, this talk page is for improving the article, not general comments about the subject. — Moe ε 06:43, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

From what I can see, it didn't really divulge anything as the user was anonymous. Here's the diff for reference: [1] east.718 06:51, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Anonymous or not, divulging IP information on ANY account without the account holders permission is in violation of the Wikimedia Foundation Privacy Policy.  ALKIVAR™ ☢ 06:54, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Then those references could be removed without taking down the whole thread (Wesleymullins 06:57, 26 June 2007 (UTC))

The conversation still doesn't belong here. Take it to OFFICE, take it AN/I, take it someplace that it fits that isn't here. — Moe ε 07:02, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

again, it's not a democracy, but you are the only person voicing that concern while many others believe it is legit for discussion. (Wesleymullins 07:07, 26 June 2007 (UTC))

How does it improve the article? Answer: I doesn't. — Moe ε 07:08, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

It's an important fact that points to the timeline of the deaths. If someone knew 18 hours before the press release, it adds to the story. (Wesleymullins 07:13, 26 June 2007 (UTC))

If you want to go play investigator, report it someplace, talk to OFFICE, otherwise your hypothetical allegations are not adding on to the story, your only being disruptive. — Moe ε 07:15, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Isnt everyone here playing investigator? Isnt that what this site is about? I dont know what hypothetical allegations you think I am adding. All I am saying is that someone added a comment about his wife's death 18 hours before it was released. Everyone else thinks it is legit to discuss and adds an aspect to this story not reported anywhere else. (Wesleymullins 07:19, 26 June 2007 (UTC))

It's also important to note that every news report speculates that Chris died sometime Monday, meaning he was still alive when somoene posted that remark about his wife being dead. (Wesleymullins 07:23, 26 June 2007 (UTC))

WP:NOT an investigative journalism source. WP:NOR clearly prohibits this sort of investigation. If that is what you think Wikipedia's goal is, then we don't want your assistance with the project. Continue down this road and you will find yourself blocked for 24hrs.  ALKIVAR™ ☢ 07:24, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

THis is not original research. I am simply pointing to two facts. 1, the news outlets report that his wife died over the weekend and Chris died Monday. 2, someone on here posted a message saying that his wife was dead about 18 hours before the press broke the story and during the time when the media says he was still alive. No theories here, no speculation. Those are simply the facts (Wesleymullins 07:36, 26 June 2007 (UTC))

If you want to threaten people with being banned, why not start with all the theories below on the different ways he could have killed himself. Those are theories; what I posted was facts. (Wesleymullins 07:39, 26 June 2007 (UTC))

You really are looking to be blocked.. — Moe ε 07:40, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Threaten me all you want. You are the person deleting threads where others clearly disagree with you. And you are also not being very nice in your replies. (Wesleymullins 07:44, 26 June 2007 (UTC))

I don't have to be very nice. Again, I didn't remove it because I didn't agree with you, one, because of the privacy policy violation before hand and the fact it didn't belong here. — Moe ε 07:46, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

And now, I am going to feed you anymore. — Moe ε 07:48, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Your opinion that it doesnt belong. Others dont share it. And no, you dont have to be nice here, but if you are going to threaten getting people banned, you should make sure your house is clean. (Wesleymullins 07:52, 26 June 2007 (UTC))

You are calling me a troll? Look at all the arguments on your talk page. Looks like you make it a daily habit of starting stuff like this (and yes, you started this) and then bully people into threatening them with a ban. (Wesleymullins 07:55, 26 June 2007 (UTC))

Has anyone considered that this information needs to (not should) be passed along to the investigating agency? Sorry if it was mentioned elsewhere, if it was I (obviously) missed it. It may or may not be important, but they need to know. [and if no one wants to make a call about it, I'll offer to do so.]Bsbfan4alex 11:26, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

add category

Category:Cause of death disputed I would do it myself, but this is on super-lockdown at the minute. Lugnuts 12:37, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

There is technically no dispute over his cause of death; it's just officially unknown at this point. Jeff Silvers 13:03, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I would say it's disputed even without the "no gunshot wounds" comment that's been flying around. IE - did he def. kill his wife, or did she kill him? Or did he committ suicide and if so, what method. Note, I'm not using this as a forum, I'm just explaining my rationale for the above category. The article has the text: the station reported that investigators believe that Benoit murdered his wife and son . Again, nothing concrete, and esp. in the light of the recent Bob Wolmer debarcle, then I wouldn't take it as read as this being 100% fact. Lugnuts 14:29, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Again, unknown is not the same as "disputed". Disputed means there are two or more sides, each of them proposing a different cause of death. That's not the case here. -- MisterHand 14:39, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

It isn't disputed. My cousin is a sergeant in the Phoenix Police Department, and he has often mentioned they can't present a series of events to the public as fact until an autopsy is performed. The Hybrid 15:02, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Additional confirmed information regarding text messages

According to WWE.com, Benoit sent what it described as "curious text messages" to several WWE wrestlers early Sunday morning, which prompted them to contact a WWE official, who then contacted Fayette County police. The article also mentions that WWE has additional information about the deaths and investigation that it has been asked to withhold for the time being. I think both bits are extremely relevant and need to be added to the article (especially considering they can be verified with a reliable source and are therefore not mere speculation). Jeff Silvers 13:06, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Request change of picture

To one of him with the World title, his greatest achievement. there are several pictures on WWE.com http://www.wwe.com/shows/ecw/superstars/chrisbenoit/photos1/4959102/

I especially like these three.

http://www.wwe.com/shows/ecw/superstars/chrisbenoit/photos1/4959102/19.jpg http://www.wwe.com/shows/ecw/superstars/chrisbenoit/photos1/4959102/10.jpg http://www.wwe.com/shows/ecw/superstars/chrisbenoit/photos1/4959102/17.jpg

Any of those would be great. What do you guys think? UnknownToaster 13:11, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia respects the copyrights of others. We do not use a copyrighted image when we have a freely licensed one. --BigDT 13:12, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

They would be great, but Wikipedia would never use a nonfree image over a free one. In all truth though, I was surprised when the image of Benoit winning the title was deleted so quickly. -- Scorpion⁰⁴²² 13:16, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Well that is a shame.. we should try to find one that is freely licensed of him with the strap. Or at least a better picture as the one in sue now is not all that great. UnknownToaster 13:23, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I actually have 2 pictures of him that I took upclose of him in the beginning of May of this year. He wasn't in a great mood at the time, because I think he was late for practice for the event, and he wasn't signing any autographs. I have his side shot of him getting his backpack out of his truck (pretty close), but it's not a great shot of him wrestling or anything. I'll happily release it for use on this page, but I'm sure there are better out there. WiiAlbanyGirl 19:40, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Picture for Death section

Image:Benoit News.jpg Taken as the news broke on a local TV channel - "Benoit News.jpg"

And what does that have to do with this article? -- Scorpion⁰⁴²² 15:06, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

What the hell do you think? Itsmeltc 16:04, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

The user was proposing it for use in the article, so it does have something to do with it, but since it isn't a picture of the crime scene or anything I don't think that it should be used. Peace, The Hybrid 15:09, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Updates once protection is lifted - let's list them here

• There's some new information in [2], including a statement that the deaths weren't gun-related, and that the WWE asked police to check on Benoit after a series of curious text messages from him early Sunday morning. Anchoress 15:27, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
• Incorrect footnote placement (see WP:FN) and incorrect use of hyphens and dashes (on date ranges and other places—see WP:DASH). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:00, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
• Publisher isn't identified on most of the sources in Notes, and many of them are to dead links; they can possibly be found in the internet archive, and all Notes should have publisher listed, as well as author and publication date when available. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:05, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

• I think the footnotes should be alright later or need to be relocated to another URL on the site (I haven't checked in deep into the site). Most of the "dead links" you are reporting, are coming from Online World of Wrestling, which is relaible and still available, but something is making the links not come in, so we need to investigate as to why. These links don't have publication dates and they are all written by Brad Dykens, the person in charge of the site. — Moe ε 16:15, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

• Comment: bear in mind that you can request that an admin edit the article by using the {{editprotected}} template. -- MisterHand 16:17, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I noticed his 5-star match from the finals of the 1994 Super J Cup isn't listed under acheivements. That should definitely be added, as I think it's his only 5 star match.AlexR42 17:53, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

• I think the dates of the family deaths that refer to ("killed his family over the weekend, and committed suicide sometime Monday") should be removed, since there is already a reference in the article to these more update dates:
  • Nancy: Friday, June 22, 2007
  • Daniel: Saturday, June 23, 2007
  • Chris: Saturday/Sunday, June 23/24, 2007. Starsfan32 18:38, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Keep an eye Out

Keep an eye out for a possible "2007 Benoit family tragedy" page or something along those lines. Usually in cases like this, a page like that will eventually come along. -- Scorpion⁰⁴²² 15:36, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

It's already begun: In memory of chris benoit -- Scorpion⁰⁴²² 15:39, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

and here 2007 benoit family tragedy ♥Fighting for charming Love♥ 15:44, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

It's easy to find new pages if you keep checking here. The newest pages are always listed at the very end. -- Scorpion⁰⁴²² 15:51, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Theres no guarentee that the editor who creates these pages will link to the Chris benoit article. In fact, the last 3 or four that I saw that were deleted, didn't link to this article. — Moe ε 15:53, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

ala eddie

is it true that chris was meant to win the ecw championship the night he died like eddie was meant to win the world championship. Should it be put in the artical? Mt 1994 15:44, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Only if you can find a reliable source that says it, which will likely never happen. -- Scorpion⁰⁴²² 15:46, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I highly doubt there are any reliable sources that can verify that WWE was going to give Benoit the title. — Moe ε 15:47, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

That depends on whether one considers Dave Meltzer a reliable source. His newsletter contains this information; which is, by the way, a logical inference, considering that Benoit's replacement won the belt instead. Best wishes, Xoloz 17:13, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I actually saw a link somewhere in my searching that he was supposed to go against CM Punk on Sunday for the title, after being drafted to ECW. I highly doubt it was a "news" site, more of a fan site. I'm sure this isn't acceptable enough. WiiAlbanyGirl 19:11, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

That part is verifiable; the ECW Championship minitournament had its first/semifinal round on ECW on Sci-Fi on Tuesday, with CM Punk defeating Marcus Cor Von and Benoit defeating Elijah Burke to advance to the finals at Vengeance. Rdfox 76 19:15, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

No gun/fire arms

I think an admin should add that there were no fire arms or guns used. There is a reliable source: the news. Although I can't find it on MyFoxAtlanta yet, I was just watching Fox 5 News (the news station here in Atlanta) at 12:00 PM, and it was the headline news. In it, they said that the authorities told them there were no gun shots or fire arms used. Can any admin add it? Xihix 16:30, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

TMZ has learned more about the deaths of WWE wrestling superstar Chris Benoit, his wife and son -- and the information is extremely disturbing.

Several Atlanta-based law enforcement sources have told TMZ Benoit may have strangled his wife on Saturday, then smothered his son in his bed a day later. Investigators refuse to off icially comment, pending final confirmation by the coroner on the cause and time of the deaths.

One source told TMZ that Benoit was texting friends during Sunday's WWE "Vengeance" Pay-Per-View program -- possibly watching the show with his son, who may have been alive at the time.

According to sources, Benoit then hanged himself Monday in a weight room inside the family home.

A police investigation is ongoing.

Source? — Moe ε 16:38, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Here is the TMZ article, but I think that we should wait for a more "legit" news source to say something. youngamerican (ahoy hoy) 16:39, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, at least until the autopsy report is released. — Moe ε 16:42, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Confirmed on Fox Sports [3] Bytebear 16:44, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

There is a more 'legit' source (for the firearms angle), the CBC article I linked to above (link no. 7 in the 'updates' section). Anchoress 16:45, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Fox 5 just said what TMZ said, sourcing TMZ too. Should that be reliable enough? Xihix 16:52, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

CNN newsflash on front page: A law enforcement official close to the investigation tells The Associated Press that pro wrestler Chris Benoit strangled his wife and smothered his son before hanging himself in his weight room. SirFozzie 16:56, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Bingo. youngamerican (ahoy hoy) 17:00, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I say add it, making sure to note that it was an anonymous source. Noting that would at least give something to backtrack on in the slim chance something else be revealed to have happened Garistotle 17:02, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

AJC reports the same, as well as Chris and Nancy were undergoing a divorce. http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/metro/fayette/stories/2007/06/25/0625benoit.html Socby19 17:10, 26 June 2007 (UTC)Socby19

i guess the domestic violence items in the AJC article should be added at some point as well.harlock_jds 17:12, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

FNC has stated that there will be a press conference at 3:00 this afternoon, their time of course. The Hybrid 17:09, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Who is FNC? Socby19 17:10, 26 June 2007 (UTC)Socby19

Fox News Channel youngamerican (ahoy hoy) 17:11, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

It's on Yahoo's page as well.The Cleveland Browns are awesome! 17:12, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

WWE SmackDown vs. Raw 2008 status

I added the following to the article:

“ The day before WrestleMania 23, Nintendo published an article confirming that Chris Benoit was to appear in the game as a Superstar[18], but due to his death in June 2007, his current status and role in the game has not been determined. ”

Does that read okay? Socby19 17:24, 26 June 2007 (UTC)Socby19

I'd honestly leave that out until there is confirmation one way or the other he would be included in the game or not. At best the comment is just crystal ballingWildthing61476 17:29, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

But he was confirmed, the day before WM 23. Socby19 17:31, 26 June 2007 (UTC)Socby19

I misread that, sorry. If he's been confirmed, until anything to the contrary is said, leave it as confirmed. Wildthing61476 17:33, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

They might keep him on there as an unlockable "WWE Legend". If I do recall correctly, WWE Attitude still had Owen Hart on there in addition to a tribute to him. Jgera5 17:41, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I hate to be crude, but Owen didn't kill anyone as Benoit has been allegedly accused of. Wildthing61476 17:49, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

yeah but Owen didn't kill his family... the WWE has been removing all references to Benoit from it's web page other than the initial story (taking down down tribute videos, removing him from dvd match listings and has discontinued his merch) so i really doubt he will be in any future WWE video game but we shouldn't add it till he is officially removedharlock_jds 17:48, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

If it's true he did murder his wife and child, I wouldn't want to buy a game celebrating the guy... Whatever respect he earned during his career is out the window, assuming that it's all true... this guy's just like OJ Simpson now... If the game producers were wise, he'd best not be in the game... on the same note, Chris Benoit SHOULD NEVER be in the WWE Hall of Fame... murders and child killers DON'T get celebrated in our culture.

I think it should be left how it reads in the article. But a good past example (sort of) of questioning the game is Eddie Guererro. The '06 version was released in the US two days after Eddie died, and he was a regular character. Obviously, since the game has been pressed and shipped, they couldn't do anything. But, with '07, Eddie was a Legend but unlocked from the start. The reason I say sort of is because he killed his family, and Owen's and Eddie's death were 'accidents'. Socby19 17:55, 26 June 2007 (UTC)Socby19

Edit: I modified the game's article to reflect his suicide and murder of his family. Socby19 17:56, 26 June 2007 (UTC)Socby19

I REALLY disagree with you editing a critical piece of that article without any sources. Most are saying in here not to change it until there is a confirmation (I would say, an official press release from Nintendo and/or WWE about the game). Above all us, Wikipedia is not a news site, and reports facts, not speculation. I really suggest removing that piece of the article. Anyone else have an opinion on this? WiiAlbanyGirl 18:58, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I do not know but I think Chris should be in SVR 2008 and the WWE Hall of Fame. Granted he has allegedly murdered his wife and son but it is not certain yet. If anything his wife should be put in the hall of fame because she was a well known manager in WCW. This is a terrible situation but we still do not know for sure if he did kill them. It looks like it but we do not know. What WWE decides to do is their buisness. Does anyone know if they will have tribute shows for ECW and SmackDown! Vermon CaTaffy 8

Because of the nature of his death (murder-suicide) WWE had no reference to Benoit w/the exception of a brief statement by Vince McMahon, which attested to the same. If Benoit had died of natural causes, wrestiing-related, etc. they definiely would have had a tribute show on both of them. Instead, they are going to ramp it back up again quickly to help everyone else involved. (source: wwe.com). Slyfield 05:14, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Death details

Media reports say he choked his wife and strangled his son before hanging himself [4] Angry Aspie 17:28, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

That's nothing but BS. I refuse to believe it unless I see proof on the Autopsy reports. King of America 17:30, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Sadly, it appears to be true. youngamerican (ahoy hoy) 17:36, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

[5] It's on CNN. As sad and disgusting as it sounds, he did kill his family and then himself... --Plasma Twa 2 17:41, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Is that the only explanation the poilce have to explane what happend? ♥Fighting for charming Love♥ 17:42, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

For the time being, yes. — Moe ε 17:45, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

They theorize that it may have been a case of him going into an irrational rage due to steroid use. Steroids often cause people to go into fits of violent rage, apparently. He and his wife were also going trough a divorce at the time. He may have literally just snapped, and turned from the quiet, respectful Benoit that the WWE wrestlers knew and loved into a killer. The Hybrid 17:47, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Steroid source that's not a wrestling site :http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/nation/ny-usbeno0627,0,5059205.story?coll=ny-main-bigpix Socby19 18:09, 26 June 2007 (UTC)Socby19

the divorce was from 2003 and had been dismissed a few months afterwards. the roid rage 'excuse' is pure speculation.harlock_jds 17:53, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

TMZ.com now citing marital strains-- physical altercations between Mr. and Mrs. Benoit.

Before her grisly death, Chris Benoit's wife once told a judge that she was, "intimidated by threats of violence" from her 220 lb. husband. In divorce papers filed in 2003, Nancy Benoit included a petition for protection from domestic abuse against Chris. In the papers, Nancy claimed that Benoit, "lost his temper and threatened to strike the petitioner and cause extensive damage to the home and personal belongings of the parties, including furniture." Nancy added that she was, "in reasonable fear for petitioner's own safety and that of the minor child." Three months later, Nancy filed to have the divorce papers and the restraining order dismissed. A short time later, a judge granted her wish.

As TMZ first reported, law enforcement sources tell TMZ they believe he strangled his wife on Saturday, smothered his son on Sunday and then hanged himself on Monday. Source: http://www.TMZ.com

CrimsonScholar 17:52, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I read somewhere earlier on that a plastic bag was involved in the suffocation? I will try and find a source. fadedx 17:49, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

If he murdered his family, we should put him in the category Category:American murderers. -- alpiazza

Shouldn't he be on Category:Canadian murderers, by logic? or perhaps the two since he lived in the U.S. for a while. -凶 18:00, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I think you meant this American Murderers CrimsonScholar 17:58, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

god this just seems like a bad dream I feal so bad for the 7 year old child ♥Fighting for charming Love♥ 17:51, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

It's too early to wonder why he did it. He could have accidentaly killed his wife, and then killed his son, we don't know. All we know at this point is he and his family are dead, and the evidence points to him as the killer. --Plasma Twa 2 17:53, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I can't believe it. I'm just crying right now just reading this man. I just really can't believe it.BigBoi29 17:56, 26 June 2007 (UTC)BigBoi29

AP is reporting that he strangled his wife, smothered his son and hung himself. http://www.yahoo.com/s/613437 --TopherRocks 17:56, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Until the press conference, we should hold off on adding him to any categories that assume a crime took place. Note:I only mentioned the roid rage thing, which I don't believe, to comfort some people who can't believe that he would willingly and knowingly kill his family. We don't need to be super depressing and condemning about this thing; the facts are bad enough. The Hybrid 17:59, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

If it is true and he did kill his son and wife I will lose all respect for him and if it is true then i waisted my tears on him ♥Fighting for charming Love♥ 18:01, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Gee, thanks for not being super depressing about this ;p The Hybrid 18:03, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

sorry ♥Fighting for charming Love♥ 18:04, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I was just kidding ;), and I think that what you said speaks for everyone. The Hybrid 18:08, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

This isn't a discussion board Hybrid ;)... in all seriousness however, I do agree with holding off, at least until the press conference runs. At least then we have the "facts".

In this case I think that using WP:IAR is just fine, as the discussion has produced many reliable news sources. The Hybrid 18:08, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

"PWTorch.com has learned that one major media entity has received an email purporting to be from a friend of the Chris Benoit extended family saying that Benoit accidentally killed his wife in a domestic argument, then panicked and killed his son later so his son could be with his mother rather than grow up without a mom and knowing his father as a murderer." I know this isn't credible, but I am just putting it out there. --Rabbethan 18:25, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Steroid source that's not a wrestling site :http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/nation/ny-usbeno0627,0,5059205.story?coll=ny-main-bigpix Socby19 18:10, 26 June 2007 (UTC)Socby19

CBC is reporting there will be a press conference at 1 o'clock today. We'll have the story soon. --Plasma Twa 2 18:11, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

What time zone? The Hybrid 18:11, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

If its CBC, it will likely be based on BC or Alberta time (so 4 or 3 Eastern, respectively)Garistotle 18:14, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, The Hybrid 18:14, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

MSNBC said it was at 3pm EST--Rabbethan 18:23, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

WWE.com has just posted a new message listing text messages Benoit sent to WWE employees. Roguemaster83 19:34, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Theories and Speculation

Some of the info going out today is not all true. Wait until a couple days have past before we start putting him in American and Canada killers. Don't get me wrong, if he killed his wife and son, then he deserves worse, and I'm one of the biggest Benoit Marks in the world. I feel horrible about this as I did the day Owen died. It makes me feel like I'm in a weird dream and this is sur-real.

My point being, let's let the police do their job, figure out what's up before people start passing judgement and making changes to Wikipedia without facts. I don't considered TMZ.com as a respected news website, same as WWE.com. Once I see this on a main website like Yahoo.com or CNN.com, then it seems more credible.The Cleveland Browns are awesome! 18:35, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Fox sports, Yahoo, many reliable news sources have been cited on this talk page. The Hybrid 18:39, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

[6] Unfortunately. SirFozzie 18:40, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

the reports that he choked his wife and strangled his son before hanging himself are on every newssite on the web (cnn, yahoo, etc etc) so i think it's safe to put him in the category of Canadian or American murders (not sur which since i don't know his citizenship statis)harlock_jds

We need to wait for it to be declared official at the press conference, just to be sure. This is an encyclopedia, as annoying as it is. The Hybrid

"Chris Benoit strangled his wife and smothered his son before hanging himself in his weight room"

http://www.gerweck.net/news/1182882775.shtml

Ryanrider

(edit conflict)but even they are saying the police think not know for a fact ♥Fighting for charming Love♥ 18:46, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Here's a article on NoDQ.com with the official results.Blindsnyper 18:48, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Everything is citing the Associated Press report. Everything says the same thing because they all originated from the same report. Until the press conference has taken place we cannot begin the insertion of categories. The Hybrid 18:51, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Every possible news radio station and website (MSNBC, CNN, ABC, etc.) is reporting that the police have announced what everyone is saying (Wife Strangled, Son Smothered, and He Hung Himself). This IS fact, but I think that we should wait until an official report of what happened (time frames, details, etc.). I think the roid rage thing IS rumor and stupidity, and we won't know what caused him to do what he did until the toxicology report is released. I think after the press release, the article should be updated, and when the tox report comes up, we can update it then. I guess this is the best way to prevent overzealous updates on heresay. WiiAlbanyGirl 18:52, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm just glad that the article is full-protected 0_o. Note that every major source is citing one paper from the Associated Press, so really all that we have is one source on the matter. However, I agree that we update (meaning we use an admin as our slave ;) after the press conference, and update again after the toxicology reports come in. Peace, The Hybrid 18:57, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

MSNBC and CCN are both standing by for the new conference to start soon. --Rabbethan 18:59, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

actually something doesn't necessarily have to be true to be in wikipedia, only attributable to a reliable source... i think the strangling/suffocation/hanging himself already qualifies as being verifiable (and if information comes does come in that refutes this infomation it will also be included if it's verifable).

AP quote confirming murder-suicide

Pro wrestler Chris Benoit strangled his wife and smothered his son before hanging himself in his weight room, a law enforcement official close to the investigation told The Associated Press Tuesday. -- Wrestler Benoit strangled wife, smothered son, hung himself in weight room, Associated Press story by Debbie Newby

Proposed text

According to a law enforcement official, Benoit strangled his wife, smothered his son, then hanged himself in his weight room. --Ssbohio 19:01, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Recommend we wait until the press conference on this; at this point, even though it's attributed to a reliable, verifiable source, it's still speculation on the part of the media and police. Rdfox 76 19:10, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. We can wait a few more minutes.  ALKIVAR™ ☢ 19:12, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm on CNN right now, and the press conference is going to happen momentarily. My suggestion is to wait until after the conference, and the official press release from it. Relax WiiAlbanyGirl 19:13, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

After the conference, Yes, I think at that point, you can place that other info into the article as a creditable source. Even if it's already all over the internet, it's common now that everyone thinks Benoit killed them and himself.The Cleveland Browns are awesome! 19:19, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I just watched it, and all facets of the AP report have been confirmed other than the smothering. He called both "deaths by asphyxiation." The Hybrid 19:20, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

That's what smothering IS. King of America 19:23, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but even when specifically asked he refused to specify that he had his mouth covered by some instrument of death, such as a bag or pillow, as opposed to strangulation. The Hybrid 19:25, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

The CBC confirms it. [7] Anchoress 19:22, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

He actually called all 3 deaths an asphyxiation. No one confirmed a strangulation or a smothering, except that the wife was actually bound at the wrists and feet, and the son did not have blood surrounding him and there was no sign of restraint. There are not many details, except she died Friday, the kid died Saturday and Benoit died on late Saturday by hanging himself with the cord (pulley) of a weight in his weight room. I suppose that this conflicts with the report that Benoit actually called in himself saying he would not be able to report for Vengeance. There is not a lot of information on why this happened, and I'm doubtful that we will ever know who Benoit texted (a co-worker of some sort), and what he said. I think all that should be said is that all three died of asphyxiation. The Fayette County District Attorney also announced that there was a Bible beside each body. This keeps getting ODDER and odder... Should we just put minor details, or that they all died of asphyxiation (who died of murder, and Chris died of Suicide). There is too much speculation now, not much out of this press conference. WiiAlbanyGirl 19:27, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I would say that Benoit murdered his family by asphyxiation, and then hung himself, causing his own death by asphyxiation. After that we should say that the toxicology reports are pending, and leave it at that. The details of restraints and Bibles don't seem necessary. The Hybrid 19:33, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I do agree with you for now, but when all details to be released are made known to the public, I do believe that details as to how the son and wife's murder was different (which is apparently was) needs to be stated, as well as how he did commit suicide. This is not speculated, as this has been legally released as fact by the District Attorney of Fayette County, GA. Unless this event will constitute a completely different article, this is going to be a significant part of his image and posthumous legacy, and all relevant details (not necessarily what one deems necessary and what one deems unnecessary) should be included. I'm sure this would include a vote of all editors on Wiki involved. WiiAlbanyGirl 19:37, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

it's up to the comunity to choose what's relevent and what's not... the bibles speek to his state of mind and should be includedharlock_jds 19:42, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Very well, we can add all of the details, but I would wait to do so until the toxicology reports are released, personally. If you want to do so sooner I won't fight you, however. I was just stating my opinion, open to be opposed by the general community. Cheers, The Hybrid 19:44, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

The police stated that Benoit's wife and son had been murdered. they didn't state that he murdered them, that is APPEARED that he had murdered them. i think it is wrong that it is stated that Benoit murdered them, until authorities confirm it. only 3, maybe 4, people know what happened. 3 of them are dead.

News conference sheds new details; incompetent admins keep article locked

News conferences currently being aired and released by reliable sources are shedding new and important details on the deaths of the Benoit family. This article has been locked long enough for simple vandalism. Administrators should know better, but evidently the locking administrator has not learned lesson from previous mistakes. Perhaps a more competent administrator could please unlock the article. Thank you. ~ UBeR 19:35, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Um, it needs to be locked especially after the press conference. This is a target for extreme vandalism, the vandalism taking place every 30 seconds before it was locked testifies to that, and needs to be protected. And yes, vandalism is a reason for full protection; there is a long history of it. Those who say it isn't have no idea what they are talking about. I would recommend leaving it locked until Saturday morning, personally. The Hybrid 19:41, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

the va tech killing articles managed to survive without full protection... why is this different?harlock_jds 19:44, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

because wrestling vandals are complete dicks. Trust me, wrestling articles are usually the ones needing full protection. The Hybrid 19:45, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

yeah the level of vandalism on these articles on a regular day, would probably warrant a semi-protection for other articles. That being said, there are biographical info that I'd like to add to the article. Ramsquire ^{(throw me a line)} 19:47, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Ramsquire: thats what this talk page is for... post the information you want added, and we'll work it in.  ALKIVAR™ ☢ 19:50, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Personally, I think that you admins are doing a great job. Ignore this angry person, and keep on doing what you're doing ;) The Hybrid 19:52, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

(Edit conflict) I really think this page needs to be reduced to semi-protect. One of the things wikipedia is noted for, especially in several news sources after the V Tech Massacre, is speed with which it makes a good, comprehensive, sourced account of new topics. That can't happen if it's fully protected until saturday. It's already ridiculously out of date. Spugmeister 19:56, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

because no one has asked an admin to update it. ALKIVAR's presence clearly suggests that the admins are waiting on us to come up with what should be added. I'll get to work on that immediately. The Hybrid 19:58, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Last night there were edits being made (literally) at a rate of 2 per minute, making it practically impossible to revert vandalism without conflicting with legitimate edits. I agree with the full protection. -- Scorpion⁰⁴²² 20:13, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree with the protection of the page. Making people wait or forcing patience is a good thing. The edits I want to make are unrelated to the murder and are not major, so I can wait a few days and see if the someone else makes the change. One thing I would suggest is brief mention of the Raw tribute in the death section, and maybe adding a legacy section at some later point. But I can wait to see if it will be necessary. Ramsquire ^{(throw me a line)} 20:18, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Drugs

At the press conference, the police said that they found steroids in the house but they were doing tests to see if Chris had any in his body. They were also saying that his actions could be part of 'roid rage'. It's said that it came to this and he will be remembered for this. (MgTurtle 19:47, 26 June 2007 (UTC)).

it should also be noted that the steroids found were from a legal prescription (likely using injury rehab as justification). as for the 'roid range' thing that is still speculation but since the murders took place over the span of a weekend i don't think it can be attributed to 'roid rage'harlock_jds 19:54, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

However, the Bibles do suggest that he was in a less than stable state of mind. Roid rage may very well be the case, but we mustn't speculate anymore. The Hybrid 19:56, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

well i think we can safely say he was not in a good state of mind, i just am not quick to jump on 'Roid Rage' as the cause of his mental state.harlock_jds 20:00, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Tell that to Fox News. They're spitting it out as fact already, but what else is new. They just had a panel on talking about how we have to stop roid usage at all costs in regards to the Benoit incident, even though the toxicology report won't be back for weeks. So yes, let's avoid speculation. Wilhelm Screamer 19:58, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

It's Fox, of course they're spewing propaganda. I'm just saying that nothing can be ruled out yet. The Hybrid 20:07, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Ahem, "roid rage" is a myth. Please refer to the wikipedia article on anabolic steroids. UnknownToaster 02:06, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

That's your opinion, and Wikipedia articles don't claim accuracy in regards to medical issues. Until doctors confirm or throw out the theory, we have a responsibility to keep or minds open. The Hybrid 07:46, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

I was asking the same thing about the Bibles. Why did he put them next to the bodies?BigBoi29 18:32, 27 June 2007 (UTC)BigBoi29

Material to add

A press conference taking place on Tuesday, June 26 confirmed that Chris Benoit had murdered his wife and son. Both died of asphyxiation. His wife was bound at the wrists and feet, while there were no signs of restraint on his son. It is reported that his wife died on Friday, his son died on Saturday, and he killed himself Saturday evening or Saturday night. He committed suicide by hanging himself by the cord of a weight machine in his basement, causing him to die of asphyxiation. It was also reported that Bibles were found next to the bodies of Nancy and Daniel. Prescribed anabolic steroids were also found within the house, though toxicology reports are still pending.

Does that work for everyone? The Hybrid 20:04, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

As long as it's cited to the nines (Ie, find a story that mentions that and cite it), I have no problem with it.

I'm fine with the wording, add a reference or two that backs the major points and I'll add it in.  ALKIVAR™ ☢ 20:09, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

make sure to replace dies with diedharlock_jds 20:11, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Fox News: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,286737,00.html Newsday: http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/nation/ny-usbeno0627,0,5059205.story?coll=ny-top-headlines

Both have press conference summaries. Socby19 20:11, 26 June 2007 (UTC)Socby19

There are plenty of reliable sources at this point (CNN, Fox News, MSNBC, etc.) to verify all of this, it looks good. Wildthing61476 20:12, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Only change I'd suggest is the final sentence, instead of a Bible by each body, it should be "It was also reported that Bibles were found next to the bodies of Nancy and Daniel." The conference was pretty clear that no bible was found with Chris Benoit. CeladusThrace 20:15, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Done, including the final sentence. Take it away Alkivar :) The Hybrid 20:18, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Content added and the bible location was clarified.  ALKIVAR™ ☢ 20:19, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, The Hybrid 20:20, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

'Chord' should be spelled 'cord', and it should read 'weight machine'. Also, maybe a mention of the steroids found within the house? 'Roid rage has not been confirmed, so just mention that prescribed anabolic steroids were found within the house. Socby19 20:21, 26 June 2007 (UTC)Socby19

Cord corrected, i am not including mention of steroids until more facts are clear from toxicology. We are not going to get caught up in the reckless speculation that this was 'roid rage. Wikipedia goes on a policy of verifiability. Currently some sources are speculating about steroids, not speaking w/ any factual backing. At this point all we know is that there was medication found in the house, all of it "appears" to be legally prescribed.  ALKIVAR™ ☢ 20:27, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

should we say his son Daniel instead of just his son? i know he had other children but i don't know if he had any other sons.harlock_jds 20:24, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

The last sentence clarifies who it was The Hybrid 20:26, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

cord of a weight machine Socby19 20:33, 26 June 2007 (UTC)Socby19

death date

the article says he died on june 25th but in the death section it says he killed himself sometime either on saturday or early sunday...when did he die anyway? user:sub619 20:28, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Autopsy has not confirmed time of death yet.  ALKIVAR™ ☢ 20:33, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

It is known that he killed himself before Monday though, the sheriff did says the autoposy showed it to be Saturday or possible early Sunday. TJ Spyke 06:25, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

well can we put the death date c.June 24 2007? §UB619! 14:52, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

the info box on the left needs to be change to reflect the 24th also. Babehs 15:25, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Concerning steroids...

This article should make positive statements concerning the actual cause of his committing these horrible acts when it does become unprotected or if an admin makes the edits. The police have stated that they have found Anabolic steroids at the crime scene and numerous people in the media have been postulating as to whether or not "Roid rage" caused him to lose his mind. It can be stated that it has been "postulated that Anabolic steroids were a contributing factor" however it should also be mentioned that the scientific evidence supporting "Roid rage" is nill. The studies that have been done concerning steroids and aggressive have shown little or no effects on angry behavior or psychosis. Most of the larger professional wrestlers are steroid users and as are thousands of professional bodybuilders worldwide, The rate of psychosis or aggression among them isn't any higher than among the normal population. Most studies on "Roid rage" have shown that either it's effects are minimal or it doesn't even exist. See [[8]], [[9]] and [[10]]. Wikidudeman ^(talk) 20:33, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Here's a new article by ESPN on the Murder & Steroid connection. ESPN: Steroids discovered in probe of slayings, suicide. "In an interview with ESPN.com on Tuesday, Ballard indicated that the boy had needle marks in his arms. The district attorney said he believed that the boy had been given growth hormones for some time because the family considered him undersized."--Hndsmepete 00:48, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

That could be why he had steroids in his home. Wikidudeman ^(talk) 08:33, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Georgia

Alkivar, can you edit the section in death and change the disambiguation of the link for Georgia? It currently says:

"[[Fayette County, Georgia|Fayette County]], [[Georgia]] police are investigating Benoit's house..."

it needs to say:

"[[Fayette County, Georgia|Fayette County]], [[Georgia (U.S. state)|Georgia]] police are investigating Benoit's house..."

Thanks. — Moe ε 20:57, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Done.  ALKIVAR™ ☢ 21:19, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Actually, it should be 1 link: "[[Fayette County, Georgia]] police are investigating Benoit's house..." TJ Spyke 21:24, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Actually, we should link the county and the state unless you have some reason not to. — Moe ε 21:26, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Theres no reason to have seperate links. It would be like having [[World Wrestling Entertainment|WWE]], [[WWE Championship|Championship]] when talking about the WWE Championship. TJ Spyke 22:07, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

It's common to do this with locations. — Moe ε 22:09, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

From what i've seen, it's only being done by a bot and I have expressed my disagreement on the talkpage of the bot. TJ Spyke 06:14, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Category

Could an admin add this to the list of categories for Benoit? Category:Sportspeople who committed suicide, since it's been confirmed that he hung himself. TJ Spyke 21:24, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

That, along with Category:Canadian murderers, Category:Murderers of children, Category:Murder-suicide. It's a damn shame; Benoit was off the chain... D4S 02:33, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

And also this category: Category:Suicides by hanging. It's all confirmed now from reliable sources. It should be updated as soon as IMO. Lugnuts 04:55, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Table of contents...

Can someone fix it so there is a table of contents for skipping to the specific post? Thanks. Wikidudeman ^(talk) 21:11, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Done.  ALKIVAR™ ☢ 21:19, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

What did you change to make it show up? Wikidudeman ^(talk) 21:20, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

You add the text __TOC__.  ALKIVAR™ ☢ 21:31, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Info to add

{{editprotected}} I see this has been mentioned a couple of times on the talk page, but is still not mentioned in the article. Nancy filed for divorce from Benoit, but later dropped the case. I think the following should be added to the article. It includes a source from SportsIllustrated.com in conjecture with CNN.com:

In 2003, Nancy filed for divorce from Benoit, citing the marriage as "irrevocably broken" and alleging "cruel treatment." She later dropped the suit, as well as the restraining order filed on her husband.

I'm not sure if this info should go in the personal life or death portion of the article. What do others think? Nikki311 21:34, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Possibly in the death section, as it is mentioned in almost every article as a foreshadowing of the tragic murder.--Hndsmepete 00:12, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

There is another discussion thread on this issue: #Why no mention that his wife filed for a divorce in 2003?. Nikki311 17:21, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Done. I added the text to the personal life section. It seems like speculation and bias to put it in the death section. Cheers. --MZMcBride 18:12, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

WWE.com Profile link no longer works

The Benoit WWE.com profile link now leeds to a "Not Found" page. Time to remove it. Maxwell795 21:36, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Actually, the link to his bio still works (http://www.wwe.com/shows/ecw/superstars/chrisbenoit/bio), but everything else is gone. As for how he's being treated, it's wrong everyone looks at him now as only a murderer and almost refuse to acknowledge the good things he did in his career. I'm definitely in the minority here, but I still respect him as a professional wrestler. What he did to his family is wrong, and I'm sorry that it happened and that this is what his "legacy" is. Mike 01:29, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

I will confirm that this bio page is still working as of today Wednesday...It's still up but all other references are off WWE.com.The Cleveland Browns are awesome! 13:15, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Minor edits in new paragraph

A few minor edits for the new paragraph today under the "Death section". The paragraph begins with "During a press conference Tuesday". The following minor edits should be made:

• A wikilink for June 26
• A wikilink for district attorney, and uncapitalize both the words "district" and "attorney" as they are not proper nouns
• Switch "killed" to "murdered", it's more formal as killing is broad.
• A wikilink to asphyxiation
• A wikilink for hanging
• A wikilink for weight machine
• A wikilink for Bible

Admin help please? Thank you! — Moe ε 21:40, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Links added.  ALKIVAR™ ☢ 22:48, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Hey, since we're suggesting changes...how 'bout changing the death date to what's actually being reported and not Monday, since they said that the death date was Saturday the 23rd or the morning of Sunday the 24th. Salisbury Steak (complaint dept. - contribs) 23:03, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

It was originally reported as Monday, but later sources pushed the dates back a little furthur, theres no harm in it. We just need to change the pretense of the sentence to signify that. — Moe ε 23:11, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm inclined to wait til the autopsy result is made public, then we'll have an more accurate time of death.  ALKIVAR™ ☢ 23:48, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

It certainly wasn't Saturday. WWE.com posted an article about the text messages he sent, which were in the wee hours of the morning Sunday, likely (but that's my own speculation) moments before he hanged himself. Nosleep1234 02:44, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Applauds!

I have to give a rousing applauds to the admins for handling this untimely and horrible story very well and keeping it from getting out of hand quickly. Let this be an example on how to handle such a story like this. --Raderick 22:56, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Seconded. Fatjabba 00:59, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

I disagree it allows a admin's personal feelings to control the POV of an article. Totally locking down an article like this is pointless and harmful to wikipedia. The Nancy Daus article seems to be doing fine with it's simi protection.harlock_jds 12:37, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Date of Death

The article says, "Benoit killed himself later Saturday evening or early Sunday morning." According to WWE, Benoit sent text messages early Sunday morning (http://www.wwe.com/inside/news/chrisbenoittimeline). It's unlikely he was dead while he sent them. Celedor15 22:24, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Good point. Just to be sure, there's no programs that can be told "Send this text message in ## hours." -- Zanimum 14:27, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Significant formatting errors

Since the page is fully protected— some administrator please fix the "May 21st, 1967" to "May 21, 1967" in the "date of birth" column in the Infobox. Also, the DOD in the intro. says "24 June 2007", while in the Infobox it says "25 June 2007". Really sloppy work folks — John Stattic (talk) 22:39, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Fixed. -- Gogo Dodo 23:44, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

not only in wiki views but in contextual and informative views, alot of the words need to be re-wordked and conjugated to in fact re-inforce the nature of the situation (murder-suicide not "found dead)

just a thought, somewhere out there family of this man's vitims probably would'nt like to know that information is being presented in that fashionWhen1eight=2zeros

Also, it's BELIEVED that it was murder-suicide. Putting it in such solid words, like it's written in stone or something, looks presumptuous so soon after the press release. Until all of the facts are known, the words should be prefaced by such words as "charged of" "accused of" or "believed to be the cause" or something like that. Not all factors have been thought of. What if the murderer was a friend of the family? "No signs of a forced entry" doesn't mean no one came in at all, especially if they were welcomed inside. Until the toxicology results are back, and all signs point to Chris Benoit being the actual murderer, beyond a shadow of a doubt, then we can begin with stating things as if they were facts. AMReese 00:50, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

the toxicology reports aren't going to point all signs back to Benoit. All we can do is mirror what the media repots since the 'real truth' will never be 100% definate. wikipedia doesn't care about the 'truth' only verifiabiltiy and popular opinion.harlock_jds 00:54, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Exactly. To report it the opposite of what news sources say is POV pushing, and speculation. Whether you believe he did it. Or even if you believe a new suspect will arise, it does not matter. The only thing that matters at this point is what the current sources are saying. If they are wrong, the article can be edited. Thus, there is no need to hedge. The only reason to hedge would be potential libel issues. However, if there is a reasonable attributable source--which we have, there are no libel issues.CraigMonroe 01:12, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

plus the people likely to sue for libel (Benoit) are dead... that's why their is a difference in the standards between the bio's of living people and non living people.harlock_jds 01:42, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

The one thing I can think of right now is, in regards to the CYA principle (IE: "believed to have caused").. That use of the words "apparent" and "alleged" satisfy that form of neutrality.Garistotle 13:42, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

When you ASSUME, you make an ASS out of U and ME, AMReese. Chicablog 17:21, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Shouldnt it say (Age 40) in his bio box. He still is 40 so it shouldnt be past tense should it? Or does he become past tense since he died?Tyeman64 05:42, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Tyeman, when someone dies their age becomes past tense. Fourty is the final age he reached; Wikipedia articles do not, for example, cite Shakespeare as 443. It caps at their death, so to speak, and becomes past tense. User:Nowah Balloon Nowah Balloon 07:14, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

New information regarding Roid Rage

I just turned off CNN, and Glen Beck just had a sports psychologist on saying that if steroid use had been mixed with painkillers, then it could have triggered an episode of paranoia lasting for a fair length of time, up to around two weeks. With how quiet he was naturally, it is doubtful that any of his co-workers would have taken his behavior as anything other than somewhat strange, so we can't rule out steroids as a contributing factor to this crime until the toxicology reports come in. The Hybrid 01:16, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

A lot of 'experts' say a lot of things. I'm not aware of any studies showing such a thing to occur. I'm aware of no studies that have studied the correlation between AAS and pain killers. We should be hesitant to publish what some random 'expert' says without any actual science behind it. Wikidudeman ^(talk) 01:29, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

In a situation like this, it is even more important than ever to rely only on published and reliable sources. It is not our job to "rule out" or "rule in" the possibility of "roid rage". We should only report what is published, not what we think of what was published or what we think should have been published. This rule actually applies to all Wikipedia articles but I remind everyone of it now since it is easy to fall into the trap of trying to figure out what happened. Not our job, folks.

--Richard 01:33, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't suggest publishing it; I was just saying that we might have been a bit foolish to close our minds so quickly. If, and only if the toxicology reports come back showing that he had both steroids and painkillers in his system would I suggest treating it as anything more than a hypothesis. Also, lecturing is my job, stop it ;P The Hybrid 01:37, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

He more than likely was using AAS and painkillers, however this doesn't mean that either caused him to lose his mind. Wikidudeman ^(talk) 01:39, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

No, but it is a possibility, apparently. We are a couple weeks early to be discussing this, anyway. Even then, in the interest of encyclopedic neutrality, we will have to represent this view if the toxicology report confirms that he was using AAS and painkillers in addition to the WWE's view. Of course, we would never treat it as anything more than a theory, as the only person who knew what was going through Benoit’s head at the time of the murders hung himself. The Hybrid 01:56, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Several news outlets including Yahoo & ESPN are reporting that his son was retarded/developmentally impaired and being given HGH and/or steroid injections. Yahoo also reports that several co-workers told them that the Benoits had reportedly fought all last week about Chris being gone and his wife being unable to care for Daniel's needs. I just thought that these were important details. Billywhack 02:22, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Daniel had Fragile X Syndrome. — Moe ε 02:36, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Moe, please, next time cite a source before making a statement like that. I know the AP made it, but it's not like stuff like that is common knowledge. By the way, we're not trying to figure out the "facts" or decide what can or cannot be published. Net neutrality is still in effect by waiting until all the facts are known. Publishing every single thought that comes out of the case is not being neutral, since the majority of the ones being discussed and cited are ones that point to Benoit being insane. That's not neutrality. That can be conceived as being one-sided. For every citation of Benoit being mentally unbalanced, there should be one for Benoit's clarity. Also, it should be noted that Benoit came out clean during the most recent WWE drug test, which occurred on April 10, 2007, Benoit tested negative, the source being http://www.wwe.com/inside/news/benoitpressrelease , which I think, cannot be denied, since they wouldn't mention such a thing if it could be refuted quickly. AMReese 03:01, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

I have seen several articles that state Daniel had fragile X syndrome. As for him testing negative on April, that still leaves a lot of time between that day and the murders. For all we know he could have started using steroids the day after the testing. Don't get me wrong, I don't think steroids was the cause of these murders, I think he was just plain nuts, I'm just saying that it doesn't really say much that he tested negative two months ago. Dionyseus 03:51, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

As I had to explain to Moe, I said that I know the Associated Press said it. What I was saying that for the benefit of the casual reader who may not be aware, it would be advisable to cite a source so people could look at it, not to mention know what the heck it is. AMReese 06:53, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

The same "expert" on the Glen Beck show claiming that steroids could have caused Benoit to lose his mind also said that there was no valid medical reason for a child to be prescribed Growth Hormones. Of course that's totally false. Wikidudeman ^(talk) 04:36, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

He didn’t say “no valid medical reason”; he said that there aren't many, which is true. HGH is usually reserved for people over the age of 12. The Hybrid 20:39, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

No, He didn't use the words "not many", I believe his direct answere was "of course not, that's crazy" to the question of whether or not HGH could be prescribed to children for medical reasons. Wikidudeman ^(talk) 20:46, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Remember, he isn't a pediatrician. I don't think that he was absolute in his answer, as you say, but either way he treats athletes, not mentally handicapped 7-year-olds. We shouldn't throw out what he said because of an answer to a question that he never should have been asked. The Hybrid 21:01, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

You're right. We should throw out what he said due to the total lack of scientific evidence supporting what he said. Wikidudeman ^(talk) 21:29, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Oh, so you're a doctor who has experience in treating athletes who use steroids, and are addicted to painkillers due to always being injured, and not just some enthusiast with no schooling or job experience in this type of thing like the rest of us? The Hybrid 22:28, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

My point being, what makes you as qualified as him to be the judge of what does or does not constitute scientific evidence? The Hybrid 22:34, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Daniels age

The second paragraph, where it mentions him killing is wife and son, his sons age needs to be added there and also his wifes age. As it is now it is up to the reader to guess their ages, I mean his son could have been an adult for all many readers would know. JayKeaton 03:07, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Sources Cited

I think that we should delete any sources that end up going to a page that say their source is another site. I think we should just use the original source, and that's it. Piling up on pages is just unnecessary, not to mention misleading the reader. Am I the only one that thinks this? AMReese 03:16, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

You are probably not the only one who thinks this. However, doing what you propose is only allowed if you have seen the cited source. That is... if you read Book B which cites Book A, you can only drop the citation to Book B in favor of a citation for Book A if you have actually read the relevant passage in Book A yourself. Consult WP:CITE and WP:V. It's in there somewhere.

--Richard 07:03, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

You can claim reasonable doubt against a website that cites a book as a source, if you don't think the book really said that. But you were questioning a website that is used as a source here, when that website cites its very own source as yet another website. In which case, it is up to you to check that the other website can still act as the source for this article (by which I mean it says the same thing) and you can go ahead and change that source yourself to the original site. Or if the original site is already listed as a source, then just delete it and say in your edit that "it was the same source as the XXXX link". If you are willing to check them and then edit them then hats off to you, you are making wikipedia slightly better, which is great as it will be slightly better than it was before you improved it JayKeaton 08:07, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Flying Head Butt

Is it possible that years of Concussions from his Flying Head Butt had anything to do with this crazy situation. I heard people say things about it, but almost every match I remember Benoit, if it didn't end in 10 mins with the Crossface, Most times during the match, he did that head butt. Could this have contribuated to his insane act(if he did do such act, again, I'm not telling you how events happened, but I'm guessing).The Cleveland Browns are awesome! 15:11, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

I'd say its a definite possibility. Again, that ties in with what Christopher Nowinski was saying about the effects of concussions. --Garistotle 15:17, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

He's the one that had that issue with the guy who killed himself right? Or am I confused with the guy who was on the Patriots and he got concussions and Belichick kept putting him in the game.I do know the guy Nowinski was a former wrestler and he's a expert on concussions supposedly. Not sure of his resources and stuff, but am I right in knowledge of him?The Cleveland Browns are awesome! 15:20, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't buy Nowinski explnation Mick foley has had more shoots to the head and concutions and hasn't gone "insane" ♥Fighting for charming Love♥ 15:20, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but Mick Foley is like the Godfather of Hardcore. No one more hardcore than Mick, and if you don't think Mick is strange too, then you haven't seen a lot of Mick. I read all his book and followed his career for a long time, Mick is a different type of man and wrestler than Benoit. Mick would probably be close to be the type to go crazy, I mean, the man lost a freaking Ear and asked the Nurse for it back in the hospital bed. LOL, that's hardcore!The Cleveland Browns are awesome! 15:22, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Give Nowinski's therory a chance. He proved Andre Waters' suicide was from lagging symptoms of his numerous concussions. To be fair to Benoit, if there's a theory that has any credibility to it such as this, then test it. Mike 15:26, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

I didn't meen to be spectical about it I just thourt it was strange that mick hasnt ever gone in violenet rages but then I never thought Benoit would ever do that ♥Fighting for charming Love♥ 15:30, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps he's because of the two different styles, since Mick's old style was kind of crazy itself, perhaps he got all his rage out in his Catus Jack Days and allow some crazyness during the Mankind days too.The Cleveland Browns are awesome! 15:41, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

redundancy

This is the quote on the main page introduction..

Benoit later garnered significant notoriety after he killed his wife and child in a murder-suicide.

On June 25, 2007, Benoit, his wife Nancy, and their 7 year old son Daniel were found dead in their Fayetteville, Georgia, home at around 2:30 PM EDT.[5] Subsequent investigation confirmed that Chris Benoit had murdered his wife and son and then hanged himself.[6]

Would it maybe display less redundancy if the article only mentioned the muder-suicide once in the introduction? I would rather put the following:

"Benoit later garnered significant notoriety after he killed his wife and child before taking his own life in a murder-suicide. On June 25, 2007, the bodies of all three were found in their Fayetteville, Georgia home."

Of course, sourcing it will be important, but how does that look for formatting's sake? --Garistotle 15:16, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

The cleaned up quote is most definitely a better read. Mike 15:19, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

I changed the quote to roughly what I had there. It eliminates the redundancy, keeps the killing part in the first paragraph and is properly referenced.--Garistotle 15:32, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree with the change, though the time the bodies were found can be left for later in the article. CraigMonroe 16:47, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Benoit Death posted on wikipedia before police find bodies

Check out this story on foxnews.com

[[11]]

- T-75|talk|contribs 17:49, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. Dionyseus 18:00, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

I just read that article too. Looks like they are referring to this edit.↔NMajdan•talk 18:01, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

I remeber hereing somthing like that yesterday on the admin notic board ♥Fighting for charming Love♥ 18:02, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Does anyone think that user should be asked where he got the information? --Duality344 18:19, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

mabye it was a Ip adress they change all the time and we would have slim chance finding him/her ♥Fighting for charming Love♥ 18:21, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

If you look at the other posts for that IP, it's fairly obvious that he's a garden variety vandal, who just happened to be right (although I'm sure he didn't know it at the time) SirFozzie 18:23, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

wow thats a 1 in a 10000 coincidence ♥Fighting for charming Love♥ 18:25, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

It's spooky that the IP resolves out to Stamford CT... where the WWE headquarters is located.... And that there have been no further edits by that IP MerrimacVI 18:27, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

If you'll examin the edit history for this talk page, you'll see that this matter has been covered in detail already. Rklawton 18:30, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't see a discussion stating that a user had added the details before they were released by the police --Duality344 18:33, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

You'll have to look here. Rklawton 18:51, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

• Thanks for pointing that out, I see that yet another wiki editor has NO IDEA what "trolling" is, but man do many of them love to use the word. I'm also glad to see that someone thinks they should just delete a conversation and not archive it, leaving it to come back up yet again. - T-75|talk|contribs 19:14, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

The thread that he pointed you to was actually the second one the editor deleted. You can view the first one here. Notice not only do those two guys have NO IDEA what it means to troll (and sadly, one of them is an admin), the editor jumped to the top of a thread and told everyone he'd be damned if he would let this discussion continue. The admin blocked him for 1 hour and me for 24 hours. That admin REALLY needs to be reviewed for his actions that night. It's a disgrace. Wesleymullins 20:35, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Yeah I also posted about that too man, I remember putting up the link and everything, then the next day when I looked through the archives, the whole entry was gone. Still mystifies me as to who could have had such info some 14 and a half hours before anyone else... -- Shatterzer0 21:11, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't think was just a lucky vandal. In the timeline that the WWE put on their site, they have since taken it down so here's copy from somewhere else, they said that they had been informed of the deaths by the time that edit was made. Someone at the WWE HQ probably made the edit after hearing of the death. ÐeadΣyeДrrow (Talk|Contribs) 19:36, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

From what I have seen in the past people like to post thier own speculations... So is this just a coincidence? IP Address: 69.120.111.23 resolves to host: ool-45786f17.dyn.optonline.net. I ran NSlookup on the poster. -chadking704

I am the person who ID'd that post here and posted it on this page Monday night. But not only was the thread taken down, an admin blocked me for 24 hours. Looks like lots of other people think it was a legit story too. Scroll back through the archives of this talk page and see an editor and admin really throw up all over themselves with the way they handled this info. Wesleymullins 20:08, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

According to the article, the post was made at 12:01 EST. Which was 12 hours before anyone knew of the deaths. MDowdal 20:39, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

During the Sunday PPV on other message boards, the rumor I heard was that Benoit missed Vengeance because of something that happened to his wife and that she may have died. She was vomiting apparently. Rumor, of course. So I think this is no big deal.

And I found this on the Wrestling Observer website:

"In a really bizarre story regarding the story going around everywhere about Wikipedia at 4:01 a.m. on Monday posting that Nancy Benoit had passed away, long before authorities knew, and it was removed 20 minutes later due to a lack of confirmation, my belief is that it was nobody who knew anything. The edit came from Connecticut, but not from WWE headquarters. My feeling is that this is just a bizarre coincidence. The WWE later found that on its chat line at 8:41 p.m., during the PPV, after Benoit missed the show, someone on a WWE chat said that he missed the show due to his wife dying. Later, when the person was asked where he heard the story, he said, "Meltzer reported it." An hour later after the Wikipedia entry was taken down, someone from Australia edited it and again put that Nancy Benoit had passed away, attributing it to "several pro wrestling web sites." I didn't know of this until today when questioned by WWE who asked if Benoit had called me, which he hadn't, nor did I report it or know anything until Monday afternoon, after the WWE wrestlers were told. It appears it was a hoax started by someone and given credibility by usage of my name, no more than the daily fake stories people make up on MMA and pro wrestling chat boards, the appear to have led to the Wikipedia edit, this become a big story, and it may be nothing more to the story other than an eerie irony."

--Maestro25 23:09, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

AP has now posted an article about the anonymous Wikipedia edit. I also heard it on Spanish radio this afternoon. Dionyseus 23:18, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

I have just finished watching CNN report on the Wikipedia anonymous edit. Nancy Grace said that if investigators determine that the anonymous editor is a coworker or a friend of Chris Benoit, he/she could be held liable for the death of Daniel. Dionyseus 00:54, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Is it fair to mention in the article that that IP had a (albeit brief) history of vandalism within wikipedia? Nosleep1234 01:45, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Benoit's doctor's office raided

Police raid office of Canadian wrestler Benoit's doctor. Anchoress 18:24, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

WWE 'abandon' him

I think it should be added that after WWE relised the truth over the Benoit families death WWE seem to not want anything to do with Chris [except giving info on their last interactions with him]. it does seem a bit important.Mt 1994 19:55, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

That's not entirely factual. If you look for it, you can find references to him on the WWE site (PPV results and title histories in particular). While they have abandoned him for the most part, especially in their handling after learning of the cause, it's not enough to warrant mention in the article. --Garistotle 20:04, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Well, lets see. Take for example the death of Eddie Guerrero due to steroids. The WWE embraced his career after his passing and then elected him into the Hall Of Fame. The WWE didn't abandon him as they have done for Benoit. Granted, Benoit's case is much more severe than Eddie's, so he won't be in the hall of fame anytime soon. But I can see where Mt 1994 is coming from. >>'''schism08'''<< 20:12, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, but it isn't a matter of abandoning Benoit. They just aren't embracing him. It isn't that they don't want anything to do with him anymore, they fully acknowledge that he was a fan favorite and one of the best workers that they had. They are simply moving on due to the circumstances. The Hybrid 20:37, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Owen Hart still is not in the Hall of Fame... I dont think Chris Benoit will ever be in the Hall of Fame. As a preformer he deserves it, but I don't think it is going to happen.

Different situation. 1) The WWE is not abandoning Benoit, they are just not paying homage to a double murderer, which is totally understandable. 2) The WWE didn't kill Benoit, he did that to himself. This page is to improve the article not rant on crazy conspiracy theories. Ramsquire ^{(throw me a line)} 21:11, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

In the uk the repeat of raw isnt the tribute to benoit but todd grisham presenting wwe champion matches so they even stoped the repeats tributing him ♥Fighting for charming Love♥ 21:12, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Owen Hart was going to be inducted alonside his brother bret, but eddie's death obviously prevented that from happening, he will be in at some stageSkitzouk 21:36, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

daniel Benoit

why does daniel benoit redirect here? ♥Fighting for charming Love♥ 20:28, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Because there isnt enough info on Daniel for him to have a full page and everything you need to know about him is pretty much said on the Chris page...

To basically prevent such an article to be created. Apart from his death, he's nowhere notable for one. -- Oakster  Talk  20:55, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

PWI Insider/AP and TMZ releases

Not to start a rumors or something, but according to PWI Insider, who credits the Associated Press [http://www.pwinsider.com/ViewArticle.asp?id=25195&p=1] (Spam protection filter doesn't allow me to post the link directly), there were "ten empty beer cans found in the Benoit home and an empty bottle of wine was found near Chris Benoit's body."

If it wasn't 'roid rage, then alcoholism could have been a factor.

Also, TMZ.com reports that Benoit's personal physician, Phil Carroll Astin, had a suspension from practice [12] and as mentioned above the doctor's office was raided earlier today.

Also tonight Debra Marshall (Stone Cold Steve Asutin's ex) will appears on Hannity and Colmes tonight, just thought that may be of some significance. — Moe ε 21:36, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Format of "Noties"

The formating of the "Notes" with a scroll bar is problematic for people who might want to print the article as well as the notes. I have changed it to a double columned note list which would make it possible for printers to print the data. Wikidudeman ^(talk) 22:06, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Um, there's a "Printable Version" link on the left sidebar you might want to check out... -- RoninBK _{T C} 08:13, 29 June 2007 (UTC)