Jump to content

Talk:Independence Day (Israel)/Archive 1

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
< Talk:Independence Day (Israel)

This is the current revision of this page, as edited by Lowercase sigmabot III (talk | contribs) at 05:26, 27 April 2023 (Archiving 4 discussion(s) from Talk:Independence Day (Israel)) (bot). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this version.

(diff) ← Previous revision | Latest revision (diff) | Newer revision → (diff)
Archive 1

ritual

The specific ritual involved in observance of this day is a matter of controversy. Some Religious Zionists have declared that Yom Ha-Atzmaut is one of the Jewish Holidays in which Hallel should be said. This view has, however, been rejected by the majority of Orthodox Jewish halachic decisors including members of the Chief Rabbinate of Israel.

The above is not totally accurate. After all, the Chief Rabbinate are the ones who said that one should say Hallel and I don't think the majority of Orthodox poskim said not to say Hallel. Most think Hallel should be said, some say without a blessing but I don't think you can say that a majority reject the practice of Hallel on Yom HaAtzmaut.

Timing

This holiday is listed as on 23 April I understand that there's always some confusion what with jewish holidays starting at sun down and lasting until the next sun down. Which date is correct? I don't know, nor could I reliably check. -Kode 14:52, 22 April 2006 (UTC) 

    It starts on the eve of April 23, but most calendars will list it as April 24, as most other Jewish holidays, although it starts the prior evening. Amechad 20:18, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
Not only that, but 2007 is only the second invocation of the "monday" clause, first instituted in 2004, which pushes it to tuesday if it lands on monday. All software written before 2004 and not updated would put it on April 23, instead of the correct April 24. -Vonfraginoff 06:36, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

The paragraph is NOT confusing, but clarifying. I wish someone in my city had checked the 2004 law, as everyone here (6th largest US city) is celebrating israeli independence day on Monday 2007. It's possible that the calendar you have is incorrect.

An external link http://www.hebcal.com/news/2007/01/yom_haatzmaut_yom_hazikaron_2007.html quotes the wikipedia article, saying that the article explains the new dating.

Yom HaShoah

The article states: "These four new days [including Yom HaShoah] are not accepted as religious holidays by Hasidim and Haredim. These groups view these new days as Israeli national holidays." I don't think anyone views Yom HaShoah as anything Israeli considering it commemorates the Holocaust and has little to do with modern Israel.

Good point, but consider this: Yom HaShoah is officially recognized by the Israeli government. --Keeves 15:25, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
Sure. So is every other Jewish holiday, which precede Israel by centuries and are perfectly recognized by religious groups. :) 38.112.113.242 15:35, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
Okay, how's this idea: The question of the religious/Israeli status of Yom HaShoah does not belong on this page, which is only for Yom Ha'atzma'ut. Each of those 4 days has its own Wikipedia article, and that's where these questions should be discussed. Therefore, in a couple of minutes, I'm going to move links for the other three holidays down to the See Also section, and rename what's left of the "New Israeli/Jewish holidays" section as "Yom Ha'atzma'ut Observances". --Keeves 15:45, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
Those changes have now been made, except that I did not add anything to the See Also section, since all those holidays are already included in the infobox at the very bottom of the article. --Keeves 16:03, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Yom HaSHoah is Israeli because its date and celebrations were invented by Israel. Shia1 09:39, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Also on Yom HaShoah

This description from the article: "Yom HaShoah V'Hagevurah - Holocaust Remembrance day, on 27th of Nissan, commemorates the date of the uprising in Warsaw Ghetto in 1943", despite the initial translation, makes it sound like the purpose of the day is to commemorate the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising, which is obviously only one facet of the commemoration of the Holocaust itself. 38.112.113.242 15:36, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Spelling

Keeves, I agree with your last edit - that information did not belong. What do you think about moving the page to Yom Ha'atzmaut, without the second apostrophe. It's more accurate, since there is an /א/ there, not an /ע/, and more importantly, it's the most popular spelling on Google. Pending comment, I am prepared to move the page. --DLandTALK 16:59, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

My personal preference would be to remove the first apostrophe, and to leave the second. My reason is that I prefer transliterations which bring a native English speaker to a close approximation of the correct pronunciation, over a scholarly mapping of Hebrew letters to English letters. In this case, I see the first apostrophe as optional, because an English speaker will tend to pronounce "haatz" and "ha'atz" the same way, as two syllables. But without the second apostrophe, an English speaker is likely to pronounce "maut" as a single syllable, to rhyme with "fought", whereas "ma'ut" forces the speaker to separate the syllables (though the pronunciation of the "u" will still likely be wrong). OTOH I can't argue with your Google results. Therefore, I suggest leaving it as is until others comment. --Keeves 23:06, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
I just came upon this article again. It's been more than long enough without comment, so I'm going ahead with the move. With regard to your concern about the pronounciation, that's why we have the IPA pronounciation (sort of...) listed in the first sentence. --DLandTALK 18:59, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Fasting and sackcloth?

I am curious as to where the information comes for this. It seems possible that people would fast and wear sackcloth for the holiday that immediately precedes Yom Haatzmaut, Yom HaZikaron, the Rememberance Day that is a day of national mourning for those who died in Israel's wars, terrorist attacks, etc. Why would we harp on death on the next day too when we've already observed the mourning? Also, I haven't seen anyone mourning it but I have seen some angry Hassidim. Valley2city 18:26, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Your last line is the one closest to what that author was trying to say. You haven't seen them, but yes indeed, there are some who are so opposed to the existence of the State that they do indeed recite various prayers of mourning on this day. I'll try to rewite that paragraph to make it clearer. --Keeves 01:26, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
I doubt this is true. Hebrew wikipedia doesn't mention it but just the demonstration of extreme group like neturei karta and angry articles from certain haredi papers. Never heard of this mourning, and I doubt it happens or noteable enough. Amoruso 02:52, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

No, it's true. On Yom HaAtzmaut, Neturei Karta'niks will wear ashes and sackcolth and fly either black or Palestinian flags or both. Satmer, Bobov, Munkatch, Chasam Soferniks, and pretty much the run of Hasidic and Hungarian anti-zionist Jewry holds it a fast day. SOme will fly black flags from their houses. Given the size of Satmar and Bobov, it basically means nearly 1/4 of all Sabbath keaping Jews hold YOm HaAtzmaut a day of mourning. These groups do not recognize Yom Zikaron, and will make a point of going about their bussiness when the siren blows, as do many Litvishik anti-ZIonists. Shia1 09:37, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

All I can say is that last year I was in Israel and on Yom Haatzmaut the haredim blocked the streets and burned trash cans. We joked that they were building huge Yahrzeit candles for Yom Hazikaron. I guess, just as the observances of the holiday are still developing, so are the methods of protesting it. Chag Sameach. --Valley2city₪‽ 16:57, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Title of article

As this is the English language Wikipedia the article should use the English name, "Israeli Independence Day" or something similar. I propose moving. PatGallacher 21:16, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

The reason that the title of the article is transliterated from the Hebrew name is that "Yom Ha'atzmaut" is a more commonly used term than any other, including "Israeli Independence Day". --DLandTALK 22:10, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
More commonly used in the English-speaking countries? I doubt it. PatGallacher 22:55, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
Check Google and see for yourself. --DLandTALK 23:10, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
I found the article by looking for it under Israeli Independence Day" as figuring out how to transliterate Yom HaAtzmaut, was difficult. Shia1 14:23, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Jewish Holy Day?

This is an Israeli holiday, not a Jewish one. It seems to be miscategorized, but I'm hesitant to remove the category in case there's a good reason. Oren0 01:52, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

You are 100% correct, but given the desire to use Wikipedia for hasbarah, if you changed it, it would be reverted back with arguements that they are one and the same. YOu would then get into an arguement about what counts as "Jewish," something Jews do, or something that's part of Judaism. You would then get in an arguement about what is Judaism. You could also point out that it is actually forbidden to "Celebrate" anything during this time period on the Jewish calendar, as it is during the Omer. But you would be shouted down by 90 people. Shia1 14:07, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

It isn't fair to use Wikipedia for hasbarah, and Wikipedia is not the right place for arguements unless they relate to Wikipedia per se; please adhere to writing factual, neutral and verifiable (preferbly backed up with citation) information. --AvihooI 03:15, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree, but nevertheless, it is used that way, and it is going to be impossible to stop people from using it that way since 90% of the people interested in Jewish topics are Jews, and 90% of Jews are Zionist, and 90% of Zionists think it is appropriate to engage in Hasbara. (see article on Hasbara). For an interesting example, notice how the snipppet detailing anti-Zionist Jews way of marking the 5th of Iyar, which used to be the only piece of this article siting a source, has been sabotaged to lead to a Hasbarah website instead of to the title of the article it came from. 88.152.134.66 15:52, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Where do you get the statistics from?; I am Israeli, Jewish and Zionist, I do not find it necessary to have pro-Israeli material on an encyclopedia and especially one like Wikipedia. I think a biased information may even prove to be counter-productive: I insist that the articles be corrected for facts in order to fit the actual reality and if it's not going to, I'll have to involve higher authorities in Wikipedia. --AvihooI 07:14, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Arab citizens of Israel do not celebrate the day?

Such a broad generalization with no citation does not belong in the article. There are not only Muslim Arabs in Israel, but also Bedouin, Druze, and Christian Arabs. While Muslims may not celebrate Yom Ha'atzmaut, other Israeli Arabs most certainly do. The article on Arab citizens of Israel is a good reference in this issue.

It is my understanding that Christian Palestinians do not like Israel just as much as Muslim Palestinians do not like Israel, though their idea of proper resitence may be different. (The same could, by the way, be said for Jewish Palestinians.) THe article on Arab citizens of Israel mentions that though nearly 10% of Palestinians are Christian, only a dozen or so serve in the army. The rest do not want to betray the Arab world or Palestine. Do you have a source for Christian Palestinians celebrating the day in any greater numbers than Muslims? Or for bedoines? I'll leave this up for a few days for a response, then I'm deleting that bit of hasbarah as unsourced. 82.81.104.93 18:20, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Jewish palestinians?

you mean thoose 100+ Hyper-orthodox (for a lack of higher term then ultra) jews who live in east jerusalem , britain and the US who deny the holocaust? They view "palestinians"(arabs , etc) like the taliban views women.

Page move

I have moved this article to Independence Day (Israel) based on WP:COMMONNAME used in the English language media in Israel. For illustration, combining Haaretz, Jerusalem Post and Ynet, the totals are:

  • Yom Haatzmaut: 6 + 2 + 29 = 37
  • Independence Day: 1,060 + 774 + 469 = 2,303

Number 57 13:58, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

You're move of this page is bold, and also disruptive. --Shuki 17:34, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Shuki. LordAmeth 18:35, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
I also agree with Shuki. Please talk about it here first before moving things. --GHcool 19:00, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
I'm also with Shuki. "Independence Day" may be used on the English-language websites of Israeli newspapers, but who is their intended audience? Perhaps people who aren't familiar with the Hebrew name? People who aren't familiar with Israeli holidays? Among people who are familiar with Israel, the name "Yom Ha'atzmaut" is much more common — even among English-speakers who may not know much Hebrew (in the United States, for example). — Malik Shabazz (Talk | contribs) 19:21, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
Firstly "Be Bold" is a Wikipedia guideline, as is WP:COMMONNAME. The evidence in favour of the English is overwhelming. Having lived in Israel for several years, no-one ever used Yom Haatzma'ut when speaking to me in English; only in Hebrew. Number 57 08:14, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
I'm sorry that was your experience. My multinational company advises foreigners at our office in April/May that Yom Hashoah, Hazikaron and Haatzmaut are holidays. --Shuki 16:30, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
Don't be sorry, it makes life much easier if people are consistent. The multinational company I worked for used the English names! Number 57 16:33, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Haftarah

I added to the bullet point for the Conservative practice this text: "Some places also read the haftarah normally read on the last day of Pesach." Is this tradition observed in other branches also?

And I just realized I have access to the selection; I'll revise my text to state the actual verses. A More Perfect Onion (talk) 13:29, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Spelling

Keeves, I agree with your last edit - that information did not belong. What do you think about moving the page to Yom Ha'atzmaut, without the second apostrophe. It's more accurate, since there is an /א/ there, not an /ע/, and more importantly, it's the most popular spelling on Google. Pending comment, I am prepared to move the page. --DLandTALK 16:59, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

My personal preference would be to remove the first apostrophe, and to leave the second. My reason is that I prefer transliterations which bring a native English speaker to a close approximation of the correct pronunciation, over a scholarly mapping of Hebrew letters to English letters. In this case, I see the first apostrophe as optional, because an English speaker will tend to pronounce "haatz" and "ha'atz" the same way, as two syllables. But without the second apostrophe, an English speaker is likely to pronounce "maut" as a single syllable, to rhyme with "fought", whereas "ma'ut" forces the speaker to separate the syllables (though the pronunciation of the "u" will still likely be wrong). OTOH I can't argue with your Google results. Therefore, I suggest leaving it as is until others comment. --Keeves 23:06, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
I just came upon this article again. It's been more than long enough without comment, so I'm going ahead with the move. With regard to your concern about the pronounciation, that's why we have the IPA pronounciation (sort of...) listed in the first sentence. --DLandTALK 18:59, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Title of article

As this is the English language Wikipedia the article should use the English name, "Israeli Independence Day" or something similar. I propose moving. PatGallacher 21:16, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

The reason that the title of the article is transliterated from the Hebrew name is that "Yom Ha'atzmaut" is a more commonly used term than any other, including "Israeli Independence Day". --DLandTALK 22:10, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
More commonly used in the English-speaking countries? I doubt it. PatGallacher 22:55, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
Check Google and see for yourself. --DLandTALK 23:10, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
I found the article by looking for it under Israeli Independence Day" as figuring out how to transliterate Yom HaAtzmaut, was difficult. Shia1 14:23, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Fasting and sackcloth?

I am curious as to where the information comes for this. It seems possible that people would fast and wear sackcloth for the holiday that immediately precedes Yom Haatzmaut, Yom HaZikaron, the Rememberance Day that is a day of national mourning for those who died in Israel's wars, terrorist attacks, etc. Why would we harp on death on the next day too when we've already observed the mourning? Also, I haven't seen anyone mourning it but I have seen some angry Hassidim. Valley2city 18:26, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Your last line is the one closest to what that author was trying to say. You haven't seen them, but yes indeed, there are some who are so opposed to the existence of the State that they do indeed recite various prayers of mourning on this day. I'll try to rewite that paragraph to make it clearer. --Keeves 01:26, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
I doubt this is true. Hebrew wikipedia doesn't mention it but just the demonstration of extreme group like neturei karta and angry articles from certain haredi papers. Never heard of this mourning, and I doubt it happens or noteable enough. Amoruso 02:52, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

No, it's true. On Yom HaAtzmaut, Neturei Karta'niks will wear ashes and sackcolth and fly either black or Palestinian flags or both. Satmer, Bobov, Munkatch, Chasam Soferniks, and pretty much the run of Hasidic and Hungarian anti-zionist Jewry holds it a fast day. SOme will fly black flags from their houses. Given the size of Satmar and Bobov, it basically means nearly 1/4 of all Sabbath keaping Jews hold YOm HaAtzmaut a day of mourning. These groups do not recognize Yom Zikaron, and will make a point of going about their bussiness when the siren blows, as do many Litvishik anti-ZIonists. Shia1 09:37, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

All I can say is that last year I was in Israel and on Yom Haatzmaut the haredim blocked the streets and burned trash cans. We joked that they were building huge Yahrzeit candles for Yom Hazikaron. I guess, just as the observances of the holiday are still developing, so are the methods of protesting it. Chag Sameach. --Valley2city₪‽ 16:57, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Arab citizens of Israel do not celebrate the day?

Such a broad generalization with no citation does not belong in the article. There are not only Muslim Arabs in Israel, but also Bedouin, Druze, and Christian Arabs. While Muslims may not celebrate Yom Ha'atzmaut, other Israeli Arabs most certainly do. The article on Arab citizens of Israel is a good reference in this issue.

It is my understanding that Christian Palestinians do not like Israel just as much as Muslim Palestinians do not like Israel, though their idea of proper resitence may be different. (The same could, by the way, be said for Jewish Palestinians.) THe article on Arab citizens of Israel mentions that though nearly 10% of Palestinians are Christian, only a dozen or so serve in the army. The rest do not want to betray the Arab world or Palestine. Do you have a source for Christian Palestinians celebrating the day in any greater numbers than Muslims? Or for bedoines? I'll leave this up for a few days for a response, then I'm deleting that bit of hasbarah as unsourced. 82.81.104.93 18:20, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Jewish palestinians?

you mean thoose 100+ Hyper-orthodox (for a lack of higher term then ultra) jews who live in east jerusalem , britain and the US who deny the holocaust? They view "palestinians"(arabs , etc) like the taliban views women.

Page move

I have moved this article to Independence Day (Israel) based on WP:COMMONNAME used in the English language media in Israel. For illustration, combining Haaretz, Jerusalem Post and Ynet, the totals are:

  • Yom Haatzmaut: 6 + 2 + 29 = 37
  • Independence Day: 1,060 + 774 + 469 = 2,303

Number 57 13:58, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

You're move of this page is bold, and also disruptive. --Shuki 17:34, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Shuki. LordAmeth 18:35, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
I also agree with Shuki. Please talk about it here first before moving things. --GHcool 19:00, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
I'm also with Shuki. "Independence Day" may be used on the English-language websites of Israeli newspapers, but who is their intended audience? Perhaps people who aren't familiar with the Hebrew name? People who aren't familiar with Israeli holidays? Among people who are familiar with Israel, the name "Yom Ha'atzmaut" is much more common — even among English-speakers who may not know much Hebrew (in the United States, for example). — Malik Shabazz (Talk | contribs) 19:21, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
Firstly "Be Bold" is a Wikipedia guideline, as is WP:COMMONNAME. The evidence in favour of the English is overwhelming. Having lived in Israel for several years, no-one ever used Yom Haatzma'ut when speaking to me in English; only in Hebrew. Number 57 08:14, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
I'm sorry that was your experience. My multinational company advises foreigners at our office in April/May that Yom Hashoah, Hazikaron and Haatzmaut are holidays. --Shuki 16:30, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
Don't be sorry, it makes life much easier if people are consistent. The multinational company I worked for used the English names! Number 57 16:33, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Move

The following is a closed discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was do not move. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 12:50, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
Yom Ha'atzmaut → Israel Independence Day — As this is the English wiki, the name should be in English. Thoughts anyone? Philly jawn (talk) 20:18, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Oppose. I WP:AGF that you missed the previous discussion about this from two years ago that you just archived. The talk page is not that long and contains previous discussion. I don't see a justification to archive it at this time. Pleae see Talk:Yom_Hazikaron and Talk:Yom_HaShoah#Requested_move. --Shuki (talk) 20:45, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
Oppose'. This the most widely used term.--Gilabrand (talk) 05:27, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Either name is acceptable, but the Hebrew name is the more common term in English. [1] [2] for some Google searches. Andrewa (talk) 09:25, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
  • Oppose the common usage is Yom Haatzmaut, even amongst English speakers.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Yossiea (talk • contribs)
  • Agree for the English speaker the term "Israeli Independence Day" is clearer. Yom Ha'atzmaut is not a name like Hanukkah or Purim, but more of a description of the day, so it can be translated. DrorK (talk) 08:02, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Haftarah

I added to the bullet point for the Conservative practice this text: "Some places also read the haftarah normally read on the last day of Pesach." Is this tradition observed in other branches also?

And I just realized I have access to the selection; I'll revise my text to state the actual verses. A More Perfect Onion (talk) 13:29, 15 August 2008 (UTC) I have changed "places" to "Conservative Synagogues" —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ricardianman (talk • contribs) 18:49, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

ritual

The specific ritual involved in observance of this day is a matter of controversy. Some Religious Zionists have declared that Yom Ha-Atzmaut is one of the Jewish Holidays in which Hallel should be said. This view has, however, been rejected by the majority of Orthodox Jewish halachic decisors including members of the Chief Rabbinate of Israel.

The above is not totally accurate. After all, the Chief Rabbinate are the ones who said that one should say Hallel and I don't think the majority of Orthodox poskim said not to say Hallel. Most think Hallel should be said, some say without a blessing but I don't think you can say that a majority reject the practice of Hallel on Yom HaAtzmaut.

Both don't really matter, since this is a non-religious holiday. Israguy (talk) 08:47, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

Yom HaShoah

The article states: "These four new days [including Yom HaShoah] are not accepted as religious holidays by Hasidim and Haredim. These groups view these new days as Israeli national holidays." I don't think anyone views Yom HaShoah as anything Israeli considering it commemorates the Holocaust and has little to do with modern Israel.

Good point, but consider this: Yom HaShoah is officially recognized by the Israeli government. --Keeves 15:25, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
Sure. So is every other Jewish holiday, which precede Israel by centuries and are perfectly recognized by religious groups. :) 38.112.113.242 15:35, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
Okay, how's this idea: The question of the religious/Israeli status of Yom HaShoah does not belong on this page, which is only for Yom Ha'atzma'ut. Each of those 4 days has its own Wikipedia article, and that's where these questions should be discussed. Therefore, in a couple of minutes, I'm going to move links for the other three holidays down to the See Also section, and rename what's left of the "New Israeli/Jewish holidays" section as "Yom Ha'atzma'ut Observances". --Keeves 15:45, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
Those changes have now been made, except that I did not add anything to the See Also section, since all those holidays are already included in the infobox at the very bottom of the article. --Keeves 16:03, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Yom HaSHoah is Israeli because its date and celebrations were invented by Israel. Shia1 09:39, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Not to dispute anything here, but to illuminate: Israel (the country) celebrates a number of official national holidays. Most of them are also recognized by religious Jews as Jewish religious holy days (Passover, Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur, just as Christmas is celebrated in Western countries). However, there are some "modern" state holidays that don't get accepted by religious Jews as holidays because they are not religious holidays. It raises the interesting question that if the Hebrew Bible is a history of the Jews, then when are they going to add the part up till the Holocaust? I think I heard that there are some Christian denominations in the US that don't accept Thanksgiving as a holiday. 71.190.66.244 (talk) 00:31, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Yom HaShoah is a modern non-religious holiday, established by Israeli law. Its date and customs are set by Israeli law. Jews around the world can mention this day, if they like, but they are not religiousy obligated to. Israguy (talk) 08:52, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

Also on Yom HaShoah

This description from the article: "Yom HaShoah V'Hagevurah - Holocaust Remembrance day, on 27th of Nissan, commemorates the date of the uprising in Warsaw Ghetto in 1943", despite the initial translation, makes it sound like the purpose of the day is to commemorate the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising, which is obviously only one facet of the commemoration of the Holocaust itself. 38.112.113.242 15:36, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

There is a "Gevurah" part to this day: remembering the bravery of the few who did rise up to the germans. Israguy (talk) 08:55, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

It seems as though this insertion is an attempt to delegitimize the holiday (as is the principle of nakba). It should not be included in the Related articles, for the same reason that Anti-Americanism should not be a related page of Independence Day (United States) - it is subversive and detracts from the neutral nature of the article. Arielkoiman (talk) 19:54, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

I have removed the link to the Nakba from the 'See also' section, since there is already a link to it from the article itself. Israguy (talk) 07:13, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
Nakba Day is a related article because the subject of that article is a related subject. Both days are intended to commemorate the same event (though they express different attitudes about it): the creation of Israel as an independent state. However, it doesn't need to be in the "see also" section because it is already linked in the article body.
Just a friendly reminder - neutrality means including dissenting viewpoints if they are notable, regardless of your personal opinions about them. You might want to check out WP:NPV for a more detailed description of this policy. 138.16.10.21 (talk) 00:45, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Jewish Holy Day?

This is an Israeli holiday, not a Jewish one. It seems to be miscategorized, but I'm hesitant to remove the category in case there's a good reason. Oren0 01:52, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

You are 100% correct, but given the desire to use Wikipedia for hasbarah, if you changed it, it would be reverted back with arguements that they are one and the same. YOu would then get into an arguement about what counts as "Jewish," something Jews do, or something that's part of Judaism. You would then get in an arguement about what is Judaism. You could also point out that it is actually forbidden to "Celebrate" anything during this time period on the Jewish calendar, as it is during the Omer. But you would be shouted down by 90 people. Shia1 14:07, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

It is allowed to celebrate Lag B'omer in the omer, because, its a chag. To those who consider Yom Haatzmaut a Chag, it is likewise permissible to celebrate it - and, BTW, to get your hair cut, to have a wedding, etc. Thats the point. Ricardianman (talk) 21:29, 9 October 2013 (UTC)


It isn't fair to use Wikipedia for hasbarah, and Wikipedia is not the right place for arguements unless they relate to Wikipedia per se; please adhere to writing factual, neutral and verifiable (preferbly backed up with citation) information. --AvihooI 03:15, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree, but nevertheless, it is used that way, and it is going to be impossible to stop people from using it that way since 90% of the people interested in Jewish topics are Jews, and 90% of Jews are Zionist, and 90% of Zionists think it is appropriate to engage in Hasbara. (see article on Hasbara). For an interesting example, notice how the snipppet detailing anti-Zionist Jews way of marking the 5th of Iyar, which used to be the only piece of this article siting a source, has been sabotaged to lead to a Hasbarah website instead of to the title of the article it came from. 88.152.134.66 15:52, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Where do you get the statistics from?; I am Israeli, Jewish and Zionist, I do not find it necessary to have pro-Israeli material on an encyclopedia and especially one like Wikipedia. I think a biased information may even prove to be counter-productive: I insist that the articles be corrected for facts in order to fit the actual reality and if it's not going to, I'll have to involve higher authorities in Wikipedia. --AvihooI 07:14, 25 April 2007 (UTC)


In fact as is discussed in the article, Yom Ha'atzmaut IS treated as a religious holiday by many diaspora Jews - possibly the majority of Orthodox Jews in the diaspora, certainly the majority of Conservative Jews, and at least many Reform Jews. Therefor it is properly listed as Jewish religious holiday. Ricardianman (talk) 17:44, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

It is a holiday that many Jews (and other non-Jews, including non-Jewish Israelis) celebrate, and some have attributed it with religiouis significance - but not a "Jewish" holiday. They are not the same. It is a national holiday. Jewish holidays appear in the Torah and Talmud and the texts of Jewish religious law. Israeli Independance day is a secular holiday. Just cause lots of Jews do something doesn't necessarily make it Jewish. Would one call sweet red wine a "Jewish" beverage just cause lots of Jews santify Shabbat with it? Chesdovi (talk) 10:07, 25 June 2013 (UTC)


as you say, Jewish holiday are discussed in texts of Jewish religious law. there are many discussions of the halachic status of the Yom hatzmaut https://www.google.com/#q=halacha+yom+haatzmaut Those discussions ARE texts of Jewish religious law - which did not stop with Talmud. If it did, then Simchat Torah would not be a Jewish Holiday. Passover and Hanukkah, BTW, have secular meanings in Israel (and even for a few diaspora Jews) (and those secular meanings may be closer to the original meanings than the religious meaningns are.) That Yom HaAtzmaut is primarily a secular Israeli holiday, does not mean it is not also a Jewish Holiday, in the meaning that has in Jewish law. As for whether sweet red wine is a "Jewish Bevegerage" I do not beleive there is, either in Jewish law, or in common English usage, such a thing as a Jewish beverage, in the same sense that there is a Jewish holiday. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ricardianman (talk • contribs) 21:26, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

I guess it all boils down to Who is a Jew, or in this case: What is Judaism? In my mind, it would be a total travesty to believe that the State of Israel has been anything but a catastrophe for Judaism. Its establishment was carried out in violation of Jewish law and against the will of the majority of rabbis. Its institutions have consistently endeavoured to diminish the role of Jewish law in society, hoping to replace the Jewish faith with secular Hebrew nationalism devoid of God and the Torah. And it has been tremendously successful in doing so. Had it not been for the demands and political clout of the so reviled ultra-Orthodox, there would not be much left of the Jewish state. Rather a State for Jews is what would exist - what its founders had aspired for. Are we to celebrate its independence as something related to Judaism? The religious Jews who imbue Israel with religious significance have merely fallen victim to Zionist idolatry. Chesdovi (talk) 13:55, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

The point of a wiki article talk page is to discuss the article not side topics. The majority of modern Orthodox jews, and virtually all Conservative and Reform Jews, consider Yom Haatzmaut a religious holiday. You may not agree with their halachic approach, and may not count their rabbis in determining majorities, but its not useful for wikipedia as an encylopedia to enshrine the haredi view of halacha and Judaism, when that is not shared by a majority of Jews. Your view of the halachic ilicitness of the establishment of Israel is reject by almost all non-haredi authorities, and your statements about its diminishing the role of Jewish law in society is demonstrably false (at least compared to any reasonable counter factual). As is your understanding of the Israeli religiou politics - the role of Judaism in the state, including kosher food in the army, the existence of chesder yeshivas, etc, is much more the result of activism by Dati Leumi than by the haredim. As for your last sentence, thats merely an ad hominem, no more worthy of a wiki discussion than the assertion that haredim treat their gedolim in an idolatrous fashion. Ricardianman (talk) 20:33, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

And which authorities permit the shedding of Jewish (and gentile for that matter) blood to enable the founding of a state where Jews are able rule themselves? None, I would hope. And with the latest anti-Jewish law passed by the Knesset which will see state-funds made available to allow thousands of abortions for non-medical reasons, the murder will continue. Very Jewish indeed. God has His reasons for the continued existence of the accursed State of Israel, just as He had His reason for the bestial Nazi murder of 6 million of His children. But human intellect would suggest the difference between the two is that in the Holocaust, Jews were killed for being Jews – through their deaths, the Holocaust martyrs sanctified the name of God. But today, Jews are killed around the world because of the secular Zionist enterprise. Jews are targeted not because they are Jews, but because they are automatically identified with Zionists. And it was the Zionist founding fathers who despised religion and God who provoked the nations against "us" by thrusting Israel on to Arab land. I can think of no worse desecration of God’s name - being killed in the name of Zionism. And this sin Jews wish to sanctify and celebrate? A Jew is obliged to give up his life in order not to commit one of the three cardinal sins. "Israel" is not the fourth. That so many religious Jews have been intoxicated with the forbidden wine of Hebrew nationalism is just too bad. Chesdovi (talk) 14:28, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

You continue to use the talk page to advocate for the haredi POV, not to discuss the article, in violation of Wiki rules. All authorities allow the shedding of blood for self defence, and the shedding of blood in Israel is exactly that. Shedding blood when you are attacked in Tel Aviv is no different, halachically then shedding blood when you attacked in the Ukraine. That is not the essence of the halachic disagreement on Zionism, which is about the entry into the land en masse. And that is something on which halachic authorities disagree - with almost all modern O authorities (as well as I think all C authorities) accepting that there is no halachic ban on entering see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Three_Oaths#Modern_era

So it all boils down, as you said, to what is Judaism. Here is what it is per wikipedia - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism it is clearly much broader than haredi Judaism. Indeed Orthodox Judaism is broader than Haredi Judaism. It is therefore incorrect to say that, within Judaism, Yom Ha'atzmaut is not a chag because haredim say it is not. And your listing of whatever you don't like about Israel, or about non-Haredi Judaism will not change that. Do you think Israel has caused anti-semitism? It can be said with equal truth that haredi extremism, in particular disrespect for both secular law and for common mores and rules of courtesy, in the diaspora, have created antisemitism. I would strong requet that you keep to the rules and customs of wikipedia when acting as a wiki editor. Ricardianman (talk) 21:16, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

Pruning a section

I have pruned a part of the Arab reactions sections, because that section was about reactions to some Arab reactions and reactions to _those_ reactions and the related court proceedings. Wiki already has an article on that subject which is linked in the text, so there's no justification to giving over 10 percent (2,517 / 17,706 = 14.2%) of this article for a complete coverage. This makes as much sense as entering a long discussion of the SCOTUS cases over flag burning into the Flag of the United States article and reactions to the outcome and so on. If anyone wishes to make a more prominent link that would be fine with me, but the previous section was simply WP:REDUNDANTFORK bordering on WP:UNDUE IMHO.79.179.99.186 (talk) 20:17, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

NPOV violation

The statement "in Israel's capital city Jerusalem" is an NPOV violation. As I said in my edit summary "it is an NPOV violation to employ Wikipedia's unattributed neutral narrative voice to describe Jerusalem as Israel's capital". There can't be a valid WP:CONSENSUS for a a statement that violates policy. This issue has been discussed extensively at Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Jerusalem. There are many ways to rewrite the statement in such a way that it does not misuse Wikipedia's unattributed neutral narrative voice. The policy violation will be corrected in due course. Its correction is simply inevitable. Sean.hoyland - talk 15:30, 4 January 2016 (UTC)

BTW, if you are going to continue to edit, you should remove the RETIRED template. I recall reading a few months back that it is a violation to continue to edit while having that template. Sir Joseph (talk) 16:06, 4 January 2016 (UTC)
I've changed it to describe it as the seat of government rather than the capital. Hope this is okay. —  Cliftonian (talk)  16:42, 4 January 2016 (UTC)

Requested move 11 May 2016

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Moved  — Amakuru (talk) 20:49, 21 May 2016 (UTC)


Yom Ha'atzmaut → Independence Day (Israel) – Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 08:09, 11 May 2016 (UTC)

Hello, nine years later!
Actually, this really should be at Independence Day (Israel), like most other pages in Category:Independence days. I love the Hebrew language, but this is the English Wikipedia, and the English name is used in English-language sources: BBC, YnetNews, Israel Prime Minister office, and so on.
The other discussion further down up on this page says that "Yom Haatzmaut" is "more widely used" with Google searches as a source, but it's not actually an acceptable source. --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 08:09, 11 May 2016 (UTC)
  • Procedural note. I refactored this page to make clear that this RM takes place in 2016. Reviving old threads is OK (although 9 years is a bit too much), but please do not rescope them for an entirely different purpose. This page is short enough that other editors can easily find old debates about the title. No such user (talk) 09:04, 11 May 2016 (UTC)
    Thanks No such user, no problem. --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 13:39, 11 May 2016 (UTC)
  • If LordAmeth and Shuki are still active maby they should explain why they think that although this is wikipedia in english the name chosen should be the name common among hebrew speakers and not the common english name. melo kol haaretz kevodi (talk) 12:14, 11 May 2016 (UTC)
  • Oppose the COMMON name for this is YH, even in English. If you're searching for ID, then we can use a redirect, but the name of the article should be what it is most commonly called, like Bastille Day. Sir Joseph (talk) 23:23, 11 May 2016 (UTC)
  • Support per AEA and שלומית קדם, no real evidence is offered that YH is known as a term by those with no knowledge of Hebrew. Bastille day and 4th of July are the only 'national days', widely known in the English-speaking world that I can think of.Pincrete (talk) 18:12, 12 May 2016 (UTC)
  • Support per WP:USEENGLISH, pending actual evidence that the transliterated Hebrew is demonstrably the WP:COMMONNAME in independent, mainstream, English-language reliable sources. We'd expect something like that transliteration in Jewish studies journals and the like, but not in the Los Angeles Times or the Reuters newswire, or a books on holidays, except as a secondary listing after the English, I'd bet.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  08:01, 13 May 2016 (UTC)
  • Support per WP:COMMONNAME and WP:UE. It's the common name even in the Israeli press. See, for example:
    • Haaretz: 107 for Yom Ha'atzmaut, >25,000 for Independence Day
    • Jerusalem Post: 5,300 for Yom Ha'atzmaut, 58,900 for Independence Day
    • Times of Israel: 15,600 for Yom Ha'atzmaut, 44,900 for Independence Day
    • Ynetnews: 70 for Yom Ha'atzmaut, 1,280 for Independence Day
Number 57 10:28, 13 May 2016 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Independence Day (Israel). Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 04:34, 10 April 2017 (UTC)

Timing

This holiday is listed as on 23 April I understand that there's always some confusion what with jewish holidays starting at sun down and lasting until the next sun down. Which date is correct? I don't know, nor could I reliably check. -Kode 14:52, 22 April 2006 (UTC) 

    It starts on the eve of April 23, but most calendars will list it as April 24, as most other Jewish holidays, although it starts the prior evening. Amechad 20:18, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
Not only that, but 2007 is only the second invocation of the "monday" clause, first instituted in 2004, which pushes it to tuesday if it lands on monday. All software written before 2004 and not updated would put it on April 23, instead of the correct April 24. -Vonfraginoff 06:36, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

The paragraph is NOT confusing, but clarifying. I wish someone in my city had checked the 2004 law, as everyone here (6th largest US city) is celebrating israeli independence day on Monday 2007. It's possible that the calendar you have is incorrect.

An external link http://www.hebcal.com/news/2007/01/yom_haatzmaut_yom_hazikaron_2007.html quotes the wikipedia article, saying that the article explains the new dating.

‏‎The funny thing is that while people believe this holiday is - or almost always is - on 5 of Iyyar - it actually is almost never on that date! The Jewish calendar's rules which determine the allowed days of Passover (15 of Nissan) also determine the possible days of 5 of Iyyar. And *additionally* we want to exclude sunday, monday, saturday - we end up that 5 of Iyyar is rarely the date of independence day - it's usually moved forward or backward. If there's interest, I can come up with the exact details and explain them in the article. The basics are in here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Days_of_week_on_Hebrew_calendar Nyh (talk) 11:57, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

Turns out I already explained the detauls once: check out http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/pipermail/linux-il/2010-April/004313.html Nyh (talk) 12:05, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Independence Day (Israel). Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 23:25, 19 May 2017 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 15 June 2017

Add (* Yom-Ha’atzmaut BimBam Jewish Animation) at the bottom of the article under "External Links." This is a link to a website for a Jewish animation company called BimBam that specializes in animated videos that instruct about a variety of Jewish topics. This link in particular is to their video about Israeli Independence Day. Jewishnerd (talk) 19:54, 15 June 2017 (UTC)

  • Comment: Editor has been added links to BimBam on many articles in the last few hours. Validity of the website should be verified before adding the link. Jumpytoo Talk 20:02, 15 June 2017 (UTC)
Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. I am reverting all of these additions across Wikipedia. Please go to WT:JUDAISM and discuss there. StevenJ81 (talk) 21:39, 15 June 2017 (UTC)

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 2 external links on Independence Day (Israel). Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

checkY An editor has reviewed this edit and fixed any errors that were found.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 22:06, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Independence Day (Israel). Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

checkY An editor has reviewed this edit and fixed any errors that were found.

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 14:20, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

Checked. StevenJ81 (talk) 17:40, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

Timing

It's 2018. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.224.79.1 (talk) 07:22, 31 January 2018 (UTC)

Edit Next Yom Haatzmaut

Please change The next occurrence of Yom Haatzmaut will take place on 8–9 May 2019.
to
The next occurrence of Yom Haatzmaut will take place on 28–29 April 2020.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Nslonim (talk • contribs) 14:52, 9 May 2019 (UTC)

 Done, though the truth is that I'm an hour or so early. (It's still Independence Day at this moment.) StevenJ81 (talk) 15:30, 9 May 2019 (UTC)

Please change The next occurrence of Yom Haatzmaut will take place on 28–29 April 2020. to The next occurrence of Yom Haatzmaut will take place on 14–15 April 2021.

Please link between Torch-lighting Ceremony (Israel) and the "Independence Day eve" paragraph. for some reason it is not been linked yet. Sincereley, Chaimkapusta (talk) 11:44, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

False information

Israeli Independence day was yesterday, April 18th. Not "19 May 2018 (Thursday, advanced one day to Iyar 4)" . איתן (talk) 08:11, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

This article is not updated for the year 2021. It says the next independence day is in April 2020. Someone with 30/500 access please fix. SteelSmasher93 (talk) 04:26, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

In this line: Rabbi Eliezer Melamed, Peninei Halachah – Zmanim, Yom HaAtzmaut

The current code is:

The correct code with the updated link is:

link: https://ph.yhb.org.il/en/category/zemanim/05-04/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by AYHB (talk • contribs) 14:05, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: Archive links help prevent link rot, and there is no change between the two links. Sennecaster (What now?) 16:19, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 6 May 2022

change

The most recent occurrence of Yom Haatzmaut took place from sunset to sunset, 14-15 April 2021.

to

The most recent occurrence of Yom Haatzmaut took place from sunset to sunset, 4-5 May 2022. Dfa1234 (talk) 13:19, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

 Done MadGuy7023 (talk) 19:25, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 1 March 2023

In the "short description" box, the lines: Pinchast (talk) 07:25, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. M.Bitton (talk) 01:14, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 7 March 2023

On the table at the top of the page, could someone fix it so it can show 2022, 2023, 2024, and 2026? The table only shows 2025. Can you please fix the table? Please. 2600:6C48:427F:9122:3593:26E4:5A00:25C0 (talk) 03:23, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. M.Bitton (talk) 13:21, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Independence_Day_(Israel)/Archive_1&oldid=1151941158"