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Talk:Nick Fury: Agent of S.H.I.E.L.D. (film)

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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by BD2412 (talk | contribs) at 06:35, 31 October 2021 (→"Wheelchair-bound": The depiction of the character matters. There are certainly fictional characters whose use of a wheelchair is portrayed with some nuance - Professor X, Barbara Gordon as Oracle. I am not even arguing that all fictional characters should be treated the same. The use of the phrase relevant in this case is the use in this article, succinctly describing this fictional character, as portrayed in this media.). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Expansion

The plot in this article is way too short and should be expanded in more detail. Also the production and reception also need to be expanded.--Paleface Jack (talk) 16:02, 22 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"Wheelchair-bound"

I don't want to revert this again without discussing it first but the implication isn't that the person being described is the only one who might take offense at this. It's still outdated and ablest terminology even if it describes a fictional character—would be okay with described a fictional character as "coloured" or as "a Saracen" in Wikipedia's voice just because a source had used it too? We gain nothing from keeping the term, it has no upsides or conveys no additional information, but by losing it we stop showing wheelchair-using readers that we think less of them. There's no issue of accuracy here, only of accessibility. 𝄠ʀᴀᴘᴘʟᴇ ꭗ 09:44, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The phrase "wheelchair-bound" is descriptive, and is not dated. There are newspaper headlines using it even within the past week, e.g., "Wheelchair-bound climate change activists are passing out in front of the White House in hunger strike" The Hill (Oct. 28, 2021); Woman charged in death of wheelchair-bound man found dead in burning Saginaw County home, Michigan Live (Oct. 27, 2021); Man hands himself over to police after allegedly raping wheelchair-bound woman, News24 (Oct. 29, 2021). BD2412 T 15:21, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not refuting that it doesn't still see use, just that we don't need to blindly parrot it back. Outdated does not mean "no longer in use", just no longer best practice. Other than finding extant uses of a phrase that people from that community object to, is there a construction reason for retaining it? If we gain no material good from keeping it, no additional information, no net positive, why would we upset a demographic of readers for reasons that boil down to nothing more than monkey see, monkey do? 𝄠ʀᴀᴘᴘʟᴇ ꭗ 15:28, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
That's literally what "dated" means. This should be a topic of an RfC for community input. As it stands, there is no broadly applied consensus to avoid use of the accurate and descriptive phrase "wheelchair-bound" across Wikipedia. BD2412 T 15:45, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Outdated can simply mean old-fashioned, not extinct. Many old-fashioned views and phrases still see regular usage. We wouldn't describe anyone, fictional or real, as a "papist" rather than Catholic, and I can see that in print daily if I care to look. Again I ask, what is the positive gain from using a phrase seen as offensive by the people it ostensibly describes? You don't seem to be offering a reason to keep it other than inertia, if you have a constructive reason to prefer it I will gladly hear it but "I don't want to change it" is not enough. 𝄠ʀᴀᴘᴘʟᴇ ꭗ 15:49, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Have asked for additional input at WT:MOS and WT:FILM as I don't know how much traffic this page will get on its own. 𝄠ʀᴀᴘᴘʟᴇ ꭗ 15:54, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

To wit, WP cannot be progressive about language use. It has to be shown, and agreed by consensus, that "wheelchair-bound" is no longer acceptable language in various mainstream MOS or the like to deprecate that wording. --Masem (t) 16:00, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The UK government style guide is one example where both "wheelchair bound" and "confined to a wheelchair" are deprecated in favour of "user"-based language, likewise the NDA, Ireland's statutory body on disability says likewise. Disability organisations such as Greater Manchester Coalition and New Mobility as well as articles by the Guardian expressly make the preference clear. This isn't a case of radical progressivism; this is a case where style guides say one thing and vernacular usage hasn't caught up—one only need to run any article through FAC to see that "common usage" is not always best usage when it comes to prose, after all. 𝄠ʀᴀᴘᴘʟᴇ ꭗ 16:12, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Further: American Psychological Association, Americans with Disabilities Act National Network, National Health Service, Stanford University, Associated Press Stylebook. 𝄠ʀᴀᴘᴘʟᴇ ꭗ 17:34, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The suggested attributive "wheelchair-using" seems like fringe usage at best based on current usage patterns. "Wheelchair-bound" appears to be strongly dominant in mainstream English. Doremo (talk) 16:02, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
There are numerous style guides out there explaining why 'wheelchair-bound' is no longer preferred. Off the top of my head here's a guideline here in WP MOS:DISAB and here's one from the UK government "[1]" Persicifolia (talk) 16:05, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Doremo, that's actually probably not a good comparison. Wheelchair-bound is an idiomatic term. Wheelchair-using is a construction; the idiomatic phrases would be uses a wheelchair or wheelchair user: like this —valereee (talk) 17:46, 30 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
"Wheelchair-bound Zola" and "wheelchair-using Zola" are the relevant phrasings used in the article edits. This does not exclude the fact that other phrasings are possible. Doremo (talk) 18:43, 30 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Has anyone mentioned that wheelchair-bound and wheelchair-using have different meanings? If I'm wheelchair-bound, I can't move myself around without the chair. If I'm wheelchair-using, we don't know whether I actually need the chair to move or not. For this reason I think we should use the terminology used in the source, on a case-by-case basis. MarshallKe (talk) 16:51, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Sources on usage provided above do not make that distinction and I'm not sure how reliable it is. 𝄠ʀᴀᴘᴘʟᴇ ꭗ 16:54, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, cross-referencing The Hill with the original source it's citing, People, it looks like The Hill is either mistaken or editorializing by using "wheelchair-bound", as People is using "sitting in wheelchairs" wording. MarshallKe (talk) 17:05, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Hi MarshallKe - it's me who made the original disputed edit. Just to add yes - there sometimes is a need to clarify whether we're talking about somebody who cannot walk at all or someone who uses a wheelchair occasionally. Either 'a full-time wheelchair user' or to be more specific 'cannot walk at all' for the former, and 'ambulatory wheelchair user', 'occasional wheelchair user' or 'sometimes uses a wheelchair' for the latter. (Part of the issue and the need for the change is that actually the majority of wheelchair users are ambulatory wheelchair users, but that's a whole other discussion I think!) Persicifolia (talk) 17:20, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Whether The Hill is editorializing or not is irrelevant. They are a major media outlet. Their usage is informative of what constitutes normal English usage. BD2412 T 17:59, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

What about if you are on a long journey, heading for a wheelchair? MapReader (talk) 17:38, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Ok that took me a while, but - to the tune of the Simon and Garfunkel song? That's legitimately the first joke about the term 'wheelchair bound' I've actually found funny. I didn't think that was possible MapReader. Persicifolia (talk) 18:10, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Not to spoil the joke by analyzing it, but the adjective "bound," with the meaning of "going," "about to embark," etc, and modified by an adverb of direction (e.g. homeward) generally doesn't take a hyphen, which "wheelchair-bound" does. (This is the English language though and there are always exceptions to every prescription. So, we do say, "northbound." But "north" is an adverbial noun (with the meaning of northward), which "wheelchair" is generally not.) If you were a wheelchair repairman, had arrived at a mansion and let yourself in, and had been stopped by the butler with the query, "May I know your business, sir?" You could reply, "I'm wheelchair bound." But without the hyphen. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 11:04, 30 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I guess I should be relieved that you weren’t actually trying to spoil it. ;) MapReader (talk) 17:46, 30 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "wheelchair-bound" is an ableist term. The sentence in question is: "They rendezvous with local Interpol agent Gail Runciter, and proceed to the safehouse, where an elderly, wheelchair-bound Zola overpowers Kate Neville's telepathy with his evil visions." "wheelchair-bound" has been changed to "wheelchair-using." If you don't like "wheelchair-using," you can easily change the sentence to, "They rendezvous with local Interpol agent Gail Runciter, and proceed to the safehouse, where an elderly Zola, a wheelchair user, overpowers Kate Neville's telepathy with his evil visions," (i.e. with an appositive).
Others have likely already found the usage in the various guides, but this is also a matter of precision in meaning. When very active humans such as Stephen Hawking (who once nearly collided into me in a supermarket (Sainsbury's) in Cambridge, England, so fast was he navigating his wheelchair, and he was intellectually active besides) have used a wheelchair, "wheelchair-bound" is not just an ableist term, it is imprecise. You could say a wheelchair in many instances is no more confining than bipedalism is to Usain Bolt. And once a term becomes anachronistic, it can't be applied to the past (when it was current) or to instances in the present which fit the literal meaning. We can't very well say, "X was a negro preacher who advised Abraham Lincoln in spiritual matters." We can't also say, "the late Dick Hoyt and his wheelchair-bound son Rick completed the Boston marathon ..." just because Rick was a quadriplegic with cerebral palsy; this is because such characterization is offensive to a minority for whom these distinctions don't have any meaning. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 11:34, 30 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
If we were talking about Hawking, or any real person, this would not be an issue. As applied to a fictional Nazi psychic supervillain, it is overcorrection on the scale of changing Blind Willie McTell to "Visually Impaired Willie McTell" or Captain Hook to "Captain Differently-Abled". Wikipedia is chock full of information that is offensive to billions, whether it is in the way we characterize political questions like the status of Tibet or Taiwan in relation to China, or the way we characterize religious doctrines, or whether we describe personal scandals of celebrities. We are not here to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS, not through our content, and not through our style guide. BD2412 T 17:28, 30 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
One, it doesn't matter who it's applied to, but to our readers; we aren't offending a character, we're offending the reader who reads the term. Secondly, strawman alternatives like "Captain Differently-Abled" are simply nonsense. We aren't here to right great wrongs, but we are here to follow commonly-used style guides to avoid causing ill will to our readers who, you might remember, are who the project is intended for. That essay is often the last bastion of those who wish to cling to something harmful but can offer no actual defence of it--please articulate one single argument in favour of using the offensive version if you can. ᵹʀᴀᴘᴘʟᴇ ꭗ 17:40, 30 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@BD2412: Blind Willie McTell was his name, part of a long tradition in jazz and blues of calling people by their physical attributes (Blind Lemon Jefferson, Fats Waller, Little Walter, Big Walter Horton, Magic Slim, ...) now thankfully abandoned. We can't very well change a person's name. But we can say, "Blind Willie McTell was born in ----. He was visually impaired at birth, the impairment becoming total in early ..." or the like. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 19:28, 30 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • We need to stop using wheelchair-bound in favor of uses a wheelchair. If the person doesn't use a wheelchair for mobility 100% of the time, we can clarify that they 'use crutches or a wheelchair to get around' or whatever, but wheelchair-bound is outdated and ableist language and we shouldn't be using it at all. And as has been pointed out, no one is actually 100% "wheelchair bound". People get out of their wheelchairs to bathe, sleep, use a standing frame. —valereee (talk) 17:42, 30 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Well that's easy. 100% of the depictions of this fictional character in this medium are of the character in a wheelchair. There are no sources suggesting that this portrayal of the fictional Nazi psychic supervillain Arnim Zola got out of his wheelchair to eat or sleep, or used a standing frame. "Wheelchair-bound" is an intrinsic element of the character's fictional identity. This is different, of course, from the MCU version of Arnim Zola, who uploads his consciousness to a computer, and therefore might be described as "computer-bound" (and not so much as a "computer user"). BD2412 T 21:46, 30 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Let's not forget George Carlin's warnings about soft language. Changing the name of the condition, doesn't change the condition. GoodDay (talk) 17:53, 30 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

... It might not change the physical condition, but it sure as hell changes the mental condition. Where did Carlin get his MD? In psychiatry? Fowler&fowler«Talk» 19:43, 30 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Carlin seems to be objecting to the evolution of "shell shock" into "post-traumatic stress disorder". Apparently the ICU nurses during COVID should be diagnosed with "shell shock." Because, you know, science doesn't actually develop and change as we learn new things. If we called it shell-shock in 1918, by golly we should be calling it shell-shock in 2021. —valereee (talk) 21:10, 30 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

What ever terminology is decided on. It likely will 'also' have to be decided if it should be treated differently or not, when it involves a fictional character or a real person. GoodDay (talk) 03:02, 31 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I see absolutely no reason why that should be the case. The concern here is for the reader. Ask yourself if the average reader is less likely to find, say, an outdated racial term less offensive if it was applied to a fictional character--they'd be very unlikely to care about the supposed distinction. ᵹʀᴀᴘᴘʟᴇ ꭗ 03:36, 31 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The depiction of the character matters. There are certainly fictional characters whose use of a wheelchair is portrayed with some nuance - Professor X, Barbara Gordon as Oracle. I am not even arguing that all fictional characters should be treated the same. The use of the phrase relevant in this case is the use in this article, succinctly describing this fictional character, as portrayed in this media. BD2412 T 06:34, 31 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
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