Talk:Ernie Banks

Homers

Cal Ripken Jr. only had 431 homers, he didn't surpass Ernie Banks at 512. User: 64.131.184.221 05:25, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

• Roughly half of Ernie's 512 homers came after he had switched to first base. Wahkeenah 06:22, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

NPOV and Sources

I fixed some of the NPOV issues that were in the article. Here is a summary of what I changed or noticed:

• In 1955, he set the record for grand slams in a single season, at an amazing 5. - The amazing comment is definitely an opinion. While it is a tremendous feat, the tone should remain neutral.

• Banks won the National League Most Valuable Player Award twice, in 1958 and 1959. This feat is amazing, since the Cubs were never pennant contenders during Banks' career and this award is usually given to players who contribute substantially to their teams' championship drives. - Again this is an opinion.

• A contemporary sportswriter remarked that, "Without Ernie Banks, the Cubs would have finished the season in Albuquerque!" - If this is true, then it needs a citation, right now it is just an unreferenced claim.

• Despite never having appeared in a postseason game, Banks is regarded as the most popular baseball player in Chicago history, leading to his nickname of "Mr. Cub." - Regarded by who, again, this needs to be referenced.

• Ernie Banks has been rumored to be part of a group looking into buying the Chicago Cubs, in case the Tribune Company decides to sell the club, as is also rumored. - This needs to be cited as well.

In the next couple of weeks (depending on my schedule) I would like to improve and expand this article. As a Cub fan, I would love to see his page reach featured article status.--Cyrus Andiron ^t/_c 14:00, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

The article could use some improvement and expansion, for sure. You were right to remove the hype, as it's redundant, at the very least. Ernie's stats speak for themselves. I found the Albuquerque quote. I had forgotten who said it. Dykes is the one attributed, which stands to reason, as he was a player and manager on the rival Sox for many years, and was often good for a quip. To say Ernie "is the most popular player" is a stretch at this point, since a generation or two never saw him play. A lot of them never saw Sandberg play, and I think he was being called "The New Mr. Cub" at one point. Sandberg wasn't outgoing like Ernie, though. "Among the most popular" is certainly fair. I had to relocate the Crain's article which I think was my original source for the comment about Banks looking into acquisition of the Cubs. That article is 8 months old, but as far as I know the Trib company is still looking at divestiture possibilities... of the Cubs, of WGN, of anything that they think will somehow make them wealthier in the short run. Wahkeenah 14:36, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Was it Banks who said, "Let's play two!"? And, if so, is it a phrase notable enough for mention? 199.8.26.10 (talk) 19:20, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Albuquerque

The article links to the city, which is unhelpful to me. It is obvious to me where they're talking about; the question is why? What connection to baseball does Albuquerque have?--Prosfilaes (talk) 22:05, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Albuquerque has traditionally been some major league team's minor league affiliate. For some years, it was the L.A. Dodgers' AAA affiliate in the Pacific Coast League. Perhaps it was a Chicago Cubs minor league team at the time, although as a long-time Cubs fan, I don't recall Albuquerque having a Cubs affiliate team. BubbleDine (talk) 14:36, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Ernie Banks/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Sportsguy17 (talk · contribs) 20:07, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

So we meet again EricEnfermero . Glad to work with you again. I'll take up this review. I will have it be noted that I am participating in WikiCup, but I am not doing it to win, just for fun. Anyway, let me do the initial stuff. Sportsguy17 (T • C) 20:07, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

Reflinks gives me a thumbs up. I am a little concerned about Checklinks, especially the Baseball-Reference citation. While not a requirement, do you think you could search Baseball-Reference for his new Home Run log, or see if it was archived? Everything else labeled look like redirects and are OK. Sportsguy17 (T • C) 20:15, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

No problem. Done. Looks like the title and URL changed slightly. I always forget Reflinks and Checklinks. EricEnfermero ^HOWDY! 20:43, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

Section-by-Section

Lead

• In the second paragraph, clarify who the Cubs are. Are they in the Negro league, or are you referring to the MLB team the Cubs? If so, say He joined the MLB in 1953 and played for the Cubs.

• Clarified so that it is explicit but not redundant to the opening. EricEnfermero ^HOWDY! 00:32, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

• In the last sentence, change it to Banks currently resides in the Los Angeles area. It gives more sophisticated language and also clarifies for the reader that it is his current residence.

• I usually avoid "currently" per WP:WTW, which is one of the important guidelines listed under GA criterion 1b. I prefer "moved to Los Angeles in _____" but I can't find a source for it. We may just need to take it out for now. EricEnfermero ^HOWDY! 00:32, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

Early Life

• Could you find a reference for the statement that his father bought him a glove for less than three dollars at the five and dime store?

When you do, also add what age that happened at.

• It's actually sourced after the following sentence, toward the end of the article. No indication of the age, but I think this section is fairly robust without it. EricEnfermero ^HOWDY! 00:32, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

• Could you also find a source his high school graduation?

• Done. Thanks for your work on this so far. EricEnfermero ^HOWDY! 00:32, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

I have to go eat dinner, so lets start with these two sections. I'm mostly looking at references as well as sentencing structure. The article overall looks good so far. Sportsguy17 (T • C) 23:11, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

MLB Career (Early Career)

• In the first paragraph of, I'd like to see a reference for him being the first black player on the Cubs, as well as Krosntadt and Moffi's writing.

• Both the quote and the first black player assertion come from the Kronstadt and Moffi source. Is that the question? WP:Citation overkill encourages that one reference can be used for multiple consecutive sentences without repeating the ref tag. I try my best to source each sentence that falls under WP:MINREF, but I'm concerned about readability if we routinely source like that. EricEnfermero ^HOWDY! 01:03, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

• The second paragraph looks fine.
• The third paragraph has many unreferenced statements. Add a reference about him and Gene Baker and Baker being the second black player on the Cubs. Likely, Baseball-Reference will work for many statements about Banks in this paragraph regarding statistics.

• Added a BR reference and an MLB.com reference, which should cover that paragraph. EricEnfermero ^HOWDY! 01:03, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

• The fourth paragraph is all good.
• The fifth paragraph again could use sources such as Baseball-Reference to reference statistics.

• This is a similar issue to the one above. One citation supports more than one consecutive sentence. EricEnfermero ^HOWDY! 01:03, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

Lets put it here for now @EricEnfermero: and you can make changes as suggested. I need to offline soon and may not hope back on again tonight. Once again, it's been a pleasure to work with you [again] so far . The article is looking good and best. Sportsguy17 (T • C) 00:15, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

No problem, sir. I have this watchlisted, so I'll respond to the next round of feedback as soon as I am online again. EricEnfermero ^HOWDY! 01:03, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

Ah yes, forgot about WP:WTW. Ignore my suggestion there then, as well as for adding more refs. As long as its verifiable. I shall move on now. Sportsguy17 (T • C) 16:12, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

Here is the continuation

MLB Career (Move to first base)

• First paragraph looks good.
• We need to reference a few things in the second paragraph (again, I'm sorry if I'm suggesting too much referencing, this is just for a few things ). Mostly, we just need references for his batting averages (again Baseball-Reference or MLB.com will work) and if possible reference his offseason activities. I am mostly asking to reference per WP:OR. If another reference already references it, then its fine.
• For the third paragraph, we should reference his 4000th home run and maybe a reference of Durocher's arrival.
• Fourth paragraph looks good.
• Fifth paragraph is good too.

MLB Career (Final seasons)

• This whole section looks good.

Personal Life

• This section looks good.

Later years and honors

• Reference his throwing out the ceremonial first pitch. Otherwise, section looks good.

This concludes the section-by-section. Let me know when you're done. Then, we can give it a final scrubdown review, @EricEnfermero:. Sportsguy17 (T • C) 16:40, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

Done. All of the above should be addressed now. For things like the Durocher hiring, they're sourced at the end of the paragraph, but I added sources for the 4000th HR and the All-Star Game first pitch. I'm ready for my scrubdown. :) Again, thanks for your work on this so far. EricEnfermero ^HOWDY! 17:16, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

Final Review

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

1. Is it reasonably well written?

   A. Prose quality, no copyvios, spelling and grammar:

   B. MoS compliance for lead, layout, words to watch, fiction, and lists:

2. Is it factually accurate and verifiable?

   A. Has an appropriate reference section:

   B. Citation to reliable sources where necessary:

   C. No original research:

3. Is it broad in its coverage?

   A. Major aspects:

   B. Focused:

4. Is it neutral?

   Fair representation without bias:

5. Is it stable?

   No edit wars, etc:

6. Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?

   A. Images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid fair use rationales are provided for non-free content:

   B. Images are provided if possible and are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions:

7. Overall:

   Pass or Fail:

Pass! Excellent work. It was a pleasure to work with you once more. Sportsguy17 (T • C) 17:41, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

Baker or Banks?

Who was the first Afro-American to play for the Cubs? Both Baker and Banks started in 1953. Our text and NPR say it was Ernie Banks, but their team-mate Ralph Kiner said Baker: http://www.baseballlibrary.com/excerpts/excerpt.php?book=banks_sandberg_grace&page=3. Kdammers (talk) 09:03, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

I took his comment as possibly meaning that Baker joined the team around the time Banks did, which turns out to be true. Banks debuted on September 17 and Baker followed three days later per the players' Baseball Reference entries. EricEnfermero (Talk) 09:11, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

I left out that Baker was signed by the organization almost four years earlier than Banks, but he spent that time in the minors. EricEnfermero (Talk) 09:15, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

Death before an Upcoming Birthday

He died eight days before his 84th birthday. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.237.34.211 (talk) 04:53, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Quotation/grammar

There is a quotation in our article that is separated from statements attributed to the mayor. Apparently, the quotation, which is currently the last one in the article, is also from the mayor. How=ever, there is a grammatical error in it. Either we have made a mistake, or a sic should be added: " The Chicago Cubs have announced they will pay for Ernie Banks’ $35,000 funeral. Donnellan Funeral Home filed a court claim Wednesday, asking for the money. Expenses for the funeral that was held last month included an $11,000 casket and nearly $7,000 dollars in flowers. Friday night, the Cubs confirm the tab will be covered by team management and the Ricketts family." CONFIRM-ED. Also, this quotation refers to the Ricketts family, with no other mention of them in the article. Kdammers (talk) 13:27, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

I stuck the quote in a Google search and it was taken from (though not attributed to) a newspaper article. I removed it. Someone can paraphrase and source that information if they like, but there's no reason to quote extensively from routine news coverage. Thanks for the heads up. EricEnfermero (Talk) 13:51, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Correction - not a newspaper article. A WGN online news item. EricEnfermero (Talk) 13:52, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Layout - 1967 / final years

I'm just leaving this section here in case User:YahwehSaves would like to discuss the placement of the 1967 season within the article rather than running up another WP:3RR issue. I think it's fine where it is; from his edits, it looks like he wants it under the final seasons section.

I suspect that this is just gratuitous tinkering with the entry. Sometimes you will observe this pattern of editing with YS, where you fix an actual mistake or, more commonly, a series of actual mistakes, and he feels the need to move content around or perform odd rewording on the same entry. I think that keeping the 1967 season and 1967 image in the middle section creates a more symmetric distribution of images, and I don't know what his reasoning is for moving those. EricEnfermero (Talk) 07:11, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

Lede photo wording

In my opinion, the wording on the lede photo should be changed:
Banks receiving the Presidential Medal of Freedom, 2013 to
Banks at his Presidential Medal of Freedom ceremony, 2013
The photo does not actually show Banks receiving the award. I'm not allowed to change it (gets reverted by one editor). Let see some good faith for a change. YahwehSaves (talk) 08:09, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

If someone had asked Banks at any point that week why he was in town, he would have likely said, "I'm receiving the Presidential Medal of Freedom." Of course he would not have meant that he was being handed the medal at that moment, but his wording would have been perfectly understood, just as the wording in the caption here is perfectly clear. Good faith, indeed. EricEnfermero (Talk) 08:42, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

This is rather trivial but you both have reasonable points from a reader's perspective. Can you 2 at least find some middle ground on this one caption? I couldn't think of good wording, so maybe WP:3O is ideal for this. Rgrds. --64.85.216.54 (talk) 15:20, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

The underlying issue is really better summarized in the section immediately above this one. After one of YS's errors gets corrected, he likes to come in and move words around. Sometimes that results in rather trivial changes; at other times, it clearly complicates or worsens the sentence structure in the article. In either case, the behavior - an inability to accept corrections related to his frequent errors without retaliating and causing more issues - is not one that I can easily accept. To me, it's really not about a middle ground; it's more about a mindset that has contributed to the accumulation of seven (!) blocks for disruptive editing and socking during a period in which he has made <7,000 edits.

During previous attempts to find middle ground with this editor, he has argued, among other things, that: "for crying out loud" should really be "for crine out loud"; that "an MLB player" should really be "a MLB player" and that "an MLB" is disruptive editing; and (at Talk:Nellie Fox) that skin cancer is a doubtful cause of death, noting that Fox "died evidently from years of tabacco use in his puffed up cheek", apparently based on his interpretation of the infobox image.

I appreciate your contribution to the discussion. Middle ground is something we should generally seek, but it isn't the appropriate solution in this case of pedantry. I would be more than willing to work with YS if his attitude were collegial and his approach a bit more humble. There was a point where I gave up trying to reason with him. I try to be as patient a guy as you will find, and I think my record supports that, but after all this time even a patient person gets tired of being pissed on by the same contributor. EricEnfermero (Talk) 16:35, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

OK, I use the "related changes" link on a Negro leagues page as my "watchlist" so I see you 2 pop up occasionally. Here's what I'm seeing: one user with an unorthodox approach to editing is driving another editor with a conventional approach crazy. WP:Baseball seems to be implementing a "ten-foot pole" policy regarding this. Past interventions (blocks/warnings) are water off a duck's back. Therefore, this isn't a content dispute, it's a WP:CONDUCTDISPUTE. If you have the energy (or will), maybe start a discussion at WP:AN (not ANI) and see if sanctions are appropriate. If so, request a topic ban or other restriction (forego an interaction-ban; there's a heart-attack waiting to happen). If the community isn't seeing the aggravation, at least you can move on. If the community agrees with you, then there ya go. Rgrds. (Same dynamic IP as above, which changes every time I blink.) --64.85.216.149 (talk) 17:21, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

I appreciate your response. It's certainly food for thought. The response of WT:BASEBALL is understandable to me. I was pretty exasperated when I posted there, but I understand that it's not really for conduct issues or conflict resolution. I'm also not very active on that page or in baseball-related discussions in general, as I prefer to stick to content over anything that involves politics or confrontation. Given that, I can't really expect people to jump in when I have a dustup with another editor. I'm hesitant to go to AN, as I'm not sure it's worth the drama and I'm not sure that I can expect any change from an editor whose block log is several deep. I don't know where that leaves me right now. I'm a long way from discussing anything related to Mr. Cub, so I'm going to respond to YS briefly and then get off this page. EricEnfermero (Talk) 05:48, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

Intentionally off subject and not in good faith (lede photo caption wording-requested good faith response) as if EE contacted him to support his off subject personal attacks (EE got nasty at my talk page, as if he wants me to be nasty to him here so I get blocked). Bad conduct by him here not me, as anyone can see and judge "for themselves" (not EE doing your thinking and judging for you which he is doing and is bad conduct to say the least, causing discord); he does not want anyone to be in good faith towards me. I've done hundreds if not thousands of article improvements, corrections (including EE editing), and good faith edits. Of course EE wants others not to be in good faith towards me, that's how, he is. Bank's ("Mr Sunshine") photo, and wording (not a receiving medal photo) could and should be better. Banks went to town to get an award, Banks at his Presidential Medal of Honor ceremony in 1967. The 1967 Pizza ad photo at the top of "Moved to first base" section" is consistent with the 1955 tv set card (not a regular MLB baseball player card) at the top of the Early Career/Early career section), but got quickly reverted as if no one should see the improvement (by me); I tried to change to Early Career/Early years but was reverted. There's also is no actual Cubs photo of Banks in uniform (Mr Cub) in the article for some reason. This is all familiar to me, one is met by a watch dog reverter/deleter like at Bank's and others infoboxes, he's a 11x All-star not a "14x All-Star" (1959-62 MLB Rules, 1 "All-Star" credit per All-Star per season, 2 not 4 All-Star teams per season). Try correcting that and see what happens. "All Star" 1945 is in some MLB player info boxes when there was no official 1945 All-Star selection or game played (both officially cancelled, you can't or not allowed to change or correct that either. Certain reverting is happening here too it seems. I must be getting in the way of something, and its not good. YahwehSaves (talk) 01:03, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

YS, there's a lot here to respond to here, and I'm sorry I was rude to you on your talk page. Here are some reactions of mine.

• I can't reconcile the fact that you are discussing good faith and at the same time asserting that I might have recruited people to this discussion via off-wiki means. I explicitly deny that, and I would just remind you that two of your seven blocks have been related to the improper use of IP addresses. Your SPI thread indicated that you used IP addresses in an irregular manner, at the very least, in 2012, 2014, 2015 and 2016. To me, that makes any allegations of this type especially confusing.
• I don't see anything in the article about going to town, and I'm not sure what you mean about the pizza photo and trading card. Early years isn't usually good because it's unclear whether you are referring to the subject's early life or his early professional career. We can certainly add an in-uniform photo if we can find one that respects copyright guidelines, but that hasn't been the subject of any reverts between us, so it's off-topic here really.
• If you've had trouble changing the x-time All-Star thing on player pages, it's probably because of what has been decided based on WT:BASEBALL consensus. We edit based on consensus at WP, not based on what our individual perceptions of "right" would be. I honestly don't remember the outcome of the last discussion, and that hasn't been the subject of any recent reverts here.
• I don't accept any responsibility for the perceived difficulties you have faced on WP. When you got your first block for irresponsibly using an IP address, I had only three edits to the encyclopedia. I didn't start the ANI that resulted in your second block, and I wasn't involved in the military-related edits and inappropriate IP usage that caused your further troubles.
• I don't want to see you blocked. I would hope that it didn't have to come to that for an eighth time.
• What I do want to see is this: When you make mistakes, I want you to be open to being corrected, and I want you to be able to accept a reasonable revert without having the "last word" on a page by awkwardly changing words around. When I see a clear mistake, I shouldn't have to wonder whether I should correct it or not because I might be scared of you adding even more poor wording in retaliation for the revert. I am certain that you have strengths that you can bring to WP; grammar and wording changes are not among your strong areas. We all have areas where we don't do well; know that and learn to move on. (Even focusing on this thread alone, where we are not discussing a player named Bank, you've typed the word Bank's at least twice.)

With all of that said, there's no evidence that anything I'm saying is going to effect any change in you, especially given the fact that your past WP sanctions have not done so. I wish the best for you, and I feel sorry for your situation to some extent, because I have wondered whether this repetitive behavior is just something you cannot easily control. EricEnfermero (Talk) 05:48, 16 February 2017 (UTC)