Talk:Kim Jong Un

{{Image requested|people of Korea|politicians and government-people|military-people}

picture

You should add a picture of him (kim jong un). Pictures of him do exist

Fair use image

Considering the circumstances surrounding this person, wouldn't a fair use image be usable? Consider that he is the leader of a highly restrictive regime, and where photos of this person are highly controlled by its government. It would be similar to military projects that are restricted. -- 76.65.128.252 (talk) 11:02, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

See the talk above. It's been mentioned n times already. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 11:07, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

It would be very easy for the North Korean government, or its news agency, to make a nice picture available. Until they do, or someone gets a chance to photograph him, I see no reason to bend the rules. He is a living person eager to make a good impression; that fact should determine our response. User:Fred Bauder Talk 13:39, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

Three times, I contacted the UN Mission of the DPRK and explained the search of public-domain photographs of Kim Jong-un and Ri Sol-ju for the purpose of posting on Wikipedia. The officer, that answered, referred me to www.kpna.kp. (so, no more calling the United Nations Mission of the DPRK; we do not want to WP:Hound).

After contacting various organizations in Washington, DC, for digital photographs, I could not find a copyright free open source.

Still undeterred, I went to Dandong in PR of China, which is across the Yalu River from Sinŭiju, North Korea and, at a museum dedicated to the War to Resist US Aggression and Aid Korea, all I got was a picture of a picture of his grandfather. See Talk:Ri Sol-ju Geraldshields11 (talk) 18:12, 5 October 2012 (UTC) Modified by Geraldshields11 (talk) 18:26, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

• Such effort is to be applauded! Nicely done Geraldshields11! --Hammersoft (talk) 18:18, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

Agreed, he went above and beyond on this one. Impressive effort on behalf of the project, GS! Snow (talk) 06:56, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

So are we going to have an image or not? In the history of notable people not having any images of them on Wikipedia, this is the most ridiculous, and the reasons are obvious.--Xxhopingtearsxx (talk) 10:50, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

Given that he is a living person and a public figure, a non-free image is inappropriate since it can be replaced by a free image. We just have to wait for that free image to be made and published. --MASEM (t) 14:06, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

Given that North Korea is a non-free country a free image is very hard to come by. Therefore the fair use image is the best solution, even if some people here are slow to realize that. Kim Jong-un has been in office for a year now and there still isn't a free image and that clearly shows that a non-free image is NOT inappropriate even though some people here want to stubbornly make us believe otherways. --Krawunsel (talk) 16:09, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

People can get into NK, it's highly regulated but its not closed borders. And we have plenty of free imagery from the country, so that's not an issue. --MASEM (t) 16:13, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

So then where IS the free image of him? It's still a difference if it's a building or Kim Jong-un. Obviously it IS an issue, however many times you repeat it isn't. And, by the way, maybe you missed the comments above, from people who tried to obtain free images of Kim Jong-un and failed. I don't see how you could stick with your opinion if you had read those comments. --Krawunsel (talk) 16:16, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

Because we are building a free content encyclopedia and a free image of Kim Jong-un is completely in the realm of reasonably possibility. We just don't have one now but our policy and the Foundation resolution don't allow us to include a non-free image just because a possible free one isn't presently available. --MASEM (t) 16:35, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

If it is "completely in the realm of reasonably possibility!" where IS the image? And our policy absolutely allows us to use an image under the fair use rationale when there's no free one available. That's what the fair use rationale has been created for! By the way, you have once again disregarded the comments above, from people who tried to obtain a free image and failed. I think that should prove even to you that there is ample reason to use an image under the fair use rationale for the time being. It could still be removed if a free image shows up, unlikely as it is. --Krawunsel (talk) 16:46, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

Our non-free content doesn't care that we currently don't have a free image that otherwise should be possible to get; it is replaceable (just not at the immediate time) and ergo its use would be a violation of that policy. I do see the comments of people that tried to contact gov't and press agencies for getting a free image but that's not the only way a free image can be obtained. As noted in early convos, the one for his father actually came from Russia due to a state visit, and thus the image was free due to the release by the Russian gov't. That's one way. Someone visiting NK may be able to get a picture (he is not a recluse person). Etc. This is a textbook case of how we apply our non-free content policy with the Foundation's requirements to living persons - we just have to be patient for the image to come about. --MASEM (t) 16:57, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

• We just had an RfC on this subject. By far the dominant view was no, we are not going to permit a non-free image to be used on this article to depict him. Wikipedia works on consensus. Consensus was strongly against the use of a non-free image. You are welcome to start another RfC if you like. However, given the recent RfC and that nothing has changed since that RfC, it is unlikely to come to a different conclusion. --Hammersoft (talk) 17:15, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

There's a site that posts things from the Korean Central News Agency, and I believe it's legitimate. On it, there's a link to a large photo gallery; nothing is in English, so I can't read it, but maybe it mentions something about image use. On the main site, there's also an e-mail option. This was released by the KCNA a couple of months ago, and I've seen it used by a number of different sources, so does anyone wanna try asking for permission? It's worth a try. Rockhead126 (talk) 22:15, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

If the gallery you're referring to is the one reached by following the "KNS Photo Service" link, then unfortunately it's not an option; it's a commercial site and, as best I can translate it, it's dubious they have ownership of the content in any event. As to the second option, it can never hurt to ask but bear in mind that any image donated would have to released completely for free use by the owner and I just have a hard time imagining that the KCNA is going to do that, especially given how little control they have over how the man is portrayed here as compared to their general mode of operation. Snow (talk) 09:16, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

This here is a link to the original article from the online version of Rodong Sinmun. I'd say that contacting the newspaper about it would be our best bet, but I don't see any way to do so, unfortunately. :I Rockhead126 (talk) 02:35, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

It seems that some people don't want to accept ANY option, they suggest options which don't work (even if you travel to North Korea, photographing is extremely restricted, and you are rather unlikely to meet Kim Jong-un walking alon the street and being happy to smile into your camera) and they debunk all other options. I've got a feeling that because North Korea is such a ferocious dictatorship, some people don't want to see the image of the head of that state in the Wikipedia at all. I'm afraid we'll never have an image of him in here. --Krawunsel (talk) 18:51, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

The image used for previous leader Kim Il-sung happens to be an illustrated portrait, not a picture of Kim. Since there are, in fact, a fair number of pictures of Kim Jong-un in existence, I could take on of those pictures, and make an illustration of that picture, and we could use that. There's no problem with copyrights, ownership, etc. --Spartan7W (talk) 10:50, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

No, you can't do that. Your version would be a derivative work of any work you are starting from and therefore burdened by copyright. The trick with the Il-sung portrait is that, if you follow back to the original commons work, it is a photograph of a portrait of the leader displayed in a public location, and per the Freedom of Panorama laws then "A copyrighted work may be used without the permission of the copyright owner [...] When a copyrighted work in public places is copied." Thus, if there is an illustration of Jong-un displayed in a public location in N. Korea, we can start from there to make a free image. --MASEM (t) 22:40, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

Spartan, if you so wish, you can make your own unique caricature/illustration of Kim Jong-un. As long as it is not based off any specific work, and is your own original rendition then there should be no copyright issues. Eventually it will be replaced with a real image when he inevitably meets with a UN or US delegation. -Marcusmax(speak) 22:57, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

Sounds good. I'll finish it up. (talk) 10:50, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

No, absolutely not. We've had this situation before on Susan Boyle before we could get a free photo of her; the first attempts were portraits painted by someone that released them for free, which were soundly rejected as both being derivative works and poor replacements. --MASEM (t) 00:02, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

How can something be considered a derivative if it is the authors own caricature and is not based off another work? If the illustration is deemed misleading, "poor" or whatever else by the community then it can be easily removed. -Marcusmax(speak) 03:04, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

Going back to the Susan Boyle case, there were two painting attempts made. One was based on a screenshot from her infamous appearance on television, and that was flat out considered an original work. Another attempt was made to not directly look like any known screenshots or photographs, but even then that was determined to be a derivative work problem (since it was a amalgamation of some of these) and thus not used. Here, Spartan's pic does seem to be an amalgamation of pics of Jong-un, so we still have the potential of it being a derivative work. (And as an aside, no offense to Spartan, but it was also a rather poor picture that would reflect negatively on WP, but that's a secondary issue). --MASEM (t) 16:32, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

This is a link to an article about Kim Jong-Un that contains a very good image, I believe. Also note that the image was obtained by Reuters from the KCNA, then Reuters subsiquently released it to The Globe and Mail, plus other news agencies. I think then someone should contact Reuters via this page and see if Wikipedia could use it. 167.7.9.163 (talk) 16:25, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

It would not be Reuter's copyright, it would be the KCNA. --MASEM (t) 16:32, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

Well then perhaps we should ask Reuters who they contacted with the KCNA to get permission to use the photo. 167.7.9.163 (talk) 17:07, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

There are lots of articles about living people which don't have photos. What's so special about this article? --Stefan2 (talk) 11:11, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

Masem seems to want to talk everything dead. Whatever suggestion is made, he claims it's no good. I think the suggestion of Marcusmax is a very good one if we don't still decide on a picture used by way of the fair use rationale. I still think that's the best solution, whatever Masem thinks he must put against it. We should, however, remember that what Masem thinks is just one opinion. That doesn't necessarily mean that he's right with the things he says here. Let's just take action! And @ Stefan2, it's the only article on a contemporary head of state without an image in it. --Krawunsel (talk) 15:44, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

It's actually required by the Foundation; we are not allowed to use non-free images of living persons unless its known to be pretty much impossible to get a free image. It is not shown that this is the case for Kim Jong-un, since he's made several public showings. --MASEM (t) 15:50, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

• @Krawunsel; a number of people have "take[n] action" on this article and uploaded a purportedly free image, only to have the image deleted because it's not free. --Hammersoft (talk) 18:26, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

"Sexiest Man Alive"

The online version of China's Communist Party newspaper has hailed a report by The Onion naming North Korean dictator Kim Jong Un as the "Sexiest Man Alive" — not realizing it is satire.

The People's Daily on Tuesday ran a 55-page photo spread on its website in a tribute to the round-faced leader, under the headline "North Korea's top leader named The Onion's Sexiest Man Alive for 2012." (AP)

http://blog.al.com/wire/2012/11/the_onion_names_kim_jong_un_se.html

—WWoods (talk) 16:57, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

Kim Jong Un's Age Is No Longer a Mystery

See The Atlantic "Kim Jong Un's Age Is No Longer a Mystery" [1] it should say 8 January 1983, not 8 January 1983 or 1984

Romanising North Korean names

I've brought this up before, but no-one seems to have rectified it: can we PLEASE change the names of all North Koreans listed on Wikipedia to reflect the correct romanisation of North Korean names?

1) No, I do not mean 'make the names of the Dear Leaders slightly larger or in bold' - don't be ridiculous.

2) The argument last time was that South Korean convention should be used like this: Kim Jong-il.

3) Even under the South Korean Revised Romanisation system, names are exceptions (all the Kims in Korea aren't going to be happy about being called 'Gim' from 'Gorea' are they?). You can effectively romanise your name as you please. Syngman Rhee, for example, follows his own convention.

4) No excuses about 'we don't know how they want their names to be spelled in North Korea'. We know perfectly well. It doesn't take long to read North Korean texts to understand that names spelled out in three parts as follows: Kim Jong Il, and NOT Kim Jong-il.

5) The body of the text, and indeed the title of the article, should therefore reflect this.

6) Again, to emphasise, this is not a politically motivated statement. If anything, using South Korean convention to cite North Korean names is far more politically sensitive.

7) The Economist Style Guide says: "South Koreans have changed their convention from Kim Dae Jung to Kim Dae-jung. But North Koreans, at least pending unification, have stuck to Kim Jong Il. Kim is the family name." We're not using mainlang pinyin to romanise the names of Taiwanese people are we? Why should Korea be any different?

8) NK News, which describes itself as the 'nets premier site on North Korean news' uses North Korean convention for North Korean names, and South Korean convention for South Korean names.

9) Why can't Wikipedia follow suit?

Indigoloki (talk) 15:24, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

The name of the article reflects the most common English language formatting of the name. That's why we have Chiang Kai-shek instead of Jiang Jieshi and Mao Zedong instead of Mao Tse-tung. Format used in the native country is irrelevant on this wiki. Rockhead126 (talk) 02:14, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

...as far as the naming of the article is concerned, at least. Rockhead126 (talk) 02:16, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

Appreciated, but English formatting where exactly? On the internet? What about the millions of references within North Korea itself? Or the archives across the rest of the world that used the non-hyphenated version for decades? Why do you think Chiang Kai-shek is more common than Jiang Jieshi? And Mao Zedong more so than Mao Tse-tung? It's also self perpetuating – given the minimal amount of information people have on North Korea, if Wikipedia was to start using the correct format, then the 'most common English language formatting of the name' would therefore change too, wouldn't it? It's frustrating to see an incredible amount of pedantry regarding a suitable photo of Kim Jong Un, yet something as simple as correctly formatting the guy's name is completely brushed aside. Indigoloki (talk) 16:18, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

I believe the intention is to use the variant most consistent with current usage amongst sources treating the subject. This is consistent with the community's broader consensus for using language within the project which reflects consistency with the context and expectations of those who are most likely to be users of a given article; for example, why we use U.K. English spelling conventions in our articles on Britain, American English conventions on those concerning the U.S., and so-forth. Kim Jong-un is certainly the current default format for media in the west at present. But honestly, it seems a minor point to me, so long as all variations redirect to the right article and there is discussion of the variation therein. Snow (talk) 11:18, 13 December 2012 (UTC)