Talk:Antifa (United States)

Misrepresentation of a cited source

The line "Historian Mark Bray, who has studied the antifa movement[...]" presents Mark Bray as some sort of neutral historian. Visiting his Wikipedia page clearly shows that this isn't the case, as the book is essentially a guide on how to be antifascist. Something like "Mark Bray, a historian and proponent of antifascism[...]" or something along those lines, as currently it hides his political bias. 97.121.153.33 (talk) 22:58, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

Are you claiming that being pro-fascist is what we seek? I tend to trust historians who are against fascism. Heck, I trust all people who oppose fascism better than those who support it. --Jayron32 18:29, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

No. I'm just saying that the wording currently makes it seem like he's neutral. He's not neutral. If you want a politicized article then by all means, have it. Perustaja (talk) 05:35, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

What is your evidence that Bray is not neutral? --Jayron32 12:57, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

Of course there is no intent to be pro-fascist, just as there is no intent to be anti-fascist (which this article definitely falls towards currently). The article should be neutral, while your initial reply very clearly shows you want it to be non-neutral. Surprising coming from an admin.

Go to his website, read his quotes, but to be honest there's no point further speaking to you. We have different goals and you want the article to be self-serving. I'm glad the rest of this website is largely not like this article. Perustaja (talk) 23:08, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

The neutral position is that "Fascism is bad". --Jayron32 13:37, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

Does whether he is neutral matter? Whether he's reliable and noteworthy is what's important, and whether we report it neutrally. BobFromBrockley (talk) 17:15, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

Yes, because what he is saying in this article is not entirely objective. If he was presenting empirical, statistical data then it would not matter. However, this article is full of quotes of him when he is a self-described anti-fascist. It's very clear he wants to put them in a good light as opposed to presenting a more balanced view of them, because he is one. It's very easy to differentiate between which quotes from him are objective and which are him excusing hateful conduct, which tarnishes the article.

e.g. "Dartmouth College historian Mark Bray, author of Antifa: The Anti-Fascist Handbook, credits Anti-Racist Action (ARA) as the precursor of modern antifa groups in the United States." Very easy and objective. This needs no form of disclaimer.

However, as examples

"Historian Mark Bray, who has studied the antifa movement, stated that "[g]iven the historical and current threat that white supremacist and fascist groups pose, it's clear to me that organized, collective self-defense is not only a legitimate response, but lamentably an all-too-necessary response to this threat on too many occasions." He has not merely studied the movement. He is a part of it and is self-described as such on his website. Why is someone who is very clearly having their opinion expressed here as a part of public reaction also being quoted for objective information? The conflict of interest is pretty obvious.

"According to Bray, while "confident that some members of antifa groups have participated in a variety of forms of resistance" during the protests, it is "impossible to ascertain the exact number of people who belong to antifa groups."" Note the language of "resistance" instead of illegal, violent, hateful, etc.

There are more but I won't make this any longer. In quotes like the above 2, it is very obvious that his language is non-neutral and he is in favor of the movement. As such, his quotes should have a disclaimer stating that he is at the very least adjacent to the group and in favor of its tactics. For instance, should we take quotations from a fascist author that are very clearly subjective, add them to a neo-fascist group, and then present him as a neutral historian? Honestly, most of his quotes belong under public opinion with disclaimers, because what he has written has merit, but it is clearly subjective, opinionated, and it skews the message and tone of the article away from "what is antifa?" to "here is how antifa really isn't that bad, in fact for each bad thing they've done hear what Bray has to say to excuse it" which I have never seen on another article on this site. Perustaja (talk) 23:04, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

I think historians rarely provide (only) empirical, statistical information. Several (most?) of uses of uses of Bray here are attributed. His book has an article, wikilinked the first time he's mentioned, which describes the book as partisan. All of the other scholars and commentators cited here have their own views, and we don't give "disclaimers". The only example you've given of anything he says which you think might be wrong is the use of the word "resistance", but the alternatives you propose ("illegal, violent, hateful") are extremely non-neutral and generally considered words to watch here. BobFromBrockley (talk) 17:09, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

It is also very telling that my initial suggestion, which was very reasonable given the quotations, was met with "do you want us to make it pro-fascist?". Which really tells how rotten to the core the handling of this article is to be honest. No real discussion of objectivity, just immediate reaction.

BobFromBrockley actually started a serious discussion on it. Perustaja (talk) 23:13, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

Starting a "serious discussion" on this smacks of false equivalence. The 'Neutral' in WP:NPOV doesn't mean we presume that both sides must be treated equally, nor that we should insult readers intelligence by over-stating obvious points. An academic who opposes fascism doesn't have a "conflict of interest" just as a doctor who opposes cancer doesn't have a 'conflict of interest' when debunking smoking lobbyists. It is not "reasonable" to subtly undermine the legitimacy of a source in the way you've proposed, and neither is it impartial just because it is presented as such. Grayfell (talk) 23:39, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

Per Grayfell, these kind of sealioning-type arguments are growing wearisome. Fascism is a harmful philosophy. The neutral position is that it is bad for humanity. "I just want the article to be neutral" is not what is being argued here. What the OP is doing here is a form of denialism, claiming that fascism is some harmless thing, and that people who oppose it are somehow under suspicion because they do so. To the contrary, I would hold anyone under suspicion who held any position that didn't see fascism as a harmful philosophy. --Jayron32 13:41, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

CSIS's recent report links antifa with "far-left" and violence

Bad title I know. I would say this scared me since CSIS previously stated that antifa made less violent attack. Is it worth changing some tone or wording according to it? ときさき くるみ ^{not because they are easy, but because they are hard} 00:28, 16 January 2023 (UTC)

In context, the source groups antifa with all other far left actors. Per the source, far left actors were more likely to use violence (by a broad definition that includes property damage) in 2021 than in previous years. Predictably, these acts were much less likely to be fatal, or to use lethal weapons (which means guns), than those from the far-right. Per the source, only one far-left attack in 2021 was fatal, and that attack was tied to Black Nationalist groups, and since anarchism and nationalism are opposed, Black Nationalist groups are not typically grouped with antifa by analysts. (The source is about 2021, but the first two examples of violence are from 2022 and 2020.) The authors' use of a single incident to try and plot a trend strikes me as very sloppy.

Strangely, the source treats "ethnonationalist" groups as separate from both far-left and far right, while also specifically describing white nationalism as far-right. But they apparently don't include the Black Nationalist attack as part of this ethnonationalist group. Why? Instead they treat it as far-left.

Despite issues like this, the source could be useful, but it should not be over-stated to support information it doesn't directly support. Grayfell (talk) 02:52, 16 January 2023 (UTC)

It's not an ideal source because, while it talks about anti-fascist groups generally and Rose City Antifa specifically, neither of these is precisely the subject of this article. Though they're probably talking about the same groups and individuals we talk about in this article, the language used leaves open the possibility they're discussing anti-fascist groups that wouldn't be considered antifa groups. – Arms & Hearts (talk) 10:40, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

Considering antifa is a broad group which does include far-left memebers including communist and anarchist who fly communist, soviet, Maoist ect flags and symbols, I don’t think it’s at all far fetched to at the very least label them “far-left” Digital Herodotus (talk) 22:27, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

"Includes" but doesn't "consist of". It also includes people who are not far-left. So "includes" is by no means a valid reason to call the group far-left. Doug Weller talk 11:48, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

The description should read something along the lines of “leftist to far leftist” then because from the description, it makes it sound like this is some left of center protest group and not a group of communist and anarchist who riot and have been involved with shooting incidents, assault, terrorism charges and other serious crimes and anti social behavior. Digital Herodotus (talk) 14:05, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

What sources do you have that can be used to label the antifa movement as "leftist to far leftist"? We will want to be able to attribute that label, right? King keudo (talk) 22:31, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

@Digital Herodotus when were they charged with terrorism? What was the outcome? Doug Weller talk 10:27, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

Would you not consider communism and anarchism far left? Digital Herodotus (talk) 07:04, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

Also, here is an article from the Counter Exfremist Project on Far-Left violence which specifically named antifa along with other factions, groups like Red Neck Revolt and the John Brown Gun Club

https://www.counterextremism.com/content/far-left-extremist-groups-united-states Digital Herodotus (talk) 07:08, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

The article you provided doesn't call antifa "leftist to far left" or designate them as terrorists. Also, anarchism, communism, whatever the case may be, what we "consider" these ideologies to be doesn't matter, what matters is what the reliable sources say about antifa, and what can be verified. The article you provided doesn't call antifa "leftist to far left". The article uses the term far-left as a broad term to encompass protestors and general groups that embrace a left-wing ideological stance. It also doesn't label antifa as terrorists, and does state "There are multiple groups in the United States that affiliate with the Antifa ideology, but they have no formal organizational relationship, formal leadership structure, or shared tactical approach" which belies the idea that the article is making any of those claims about the antifa movement. King keudo (talk) 13:02, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

“The president’s desire to label Antifa a terrorist organization highlighted the problematic nature of modern far-left groups in the United States, which are largely less organized than their predecessors”

I also never called for Antifa to be called terrorist now, just that they be called far leftist for their inclusion of communist and anarchist. Digital Herodotus (talk) 14:50, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

So no charge, just another accusation by someone with a reputation of making wild accusations. We need sources, the fact that some anarchists participate doesn’t make the movement far left. And unless you know which communist party your communists belong to, you can’t even call them far left. Doug Weller talk 15:30, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

This doesn’t make sense, someone does need to belong to an official political party to be a far leftist. I was asked for a source for the far left claim and I provided one. I don’t appreciate the strawman argument with the “terrorist” line, something I never called for, but I will assume this was just an honest mistake. Digital Herodotus (talk) 15:59, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

You said Terrorism charges but didn’t back that up. Now you are saying what? You have sources for far leftists that don’t belong to any party but then where does “communists” come in? I’m confused. I do know that not all communists are far left. Doug Weller talk 16:19, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

“I do know not all communist are far left” Do you believe not all Nazis are far right as well? Digital Herodotus (talk) 16:33, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

How do define far left? Doug Weller talk 17:03, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

Again how do you define far left? Doug Weller talk 21:39, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

“Antifa is a contraction of the phrase “anti-fascist.” It refers to a decentralized network of far-left militants that oppose what they believe are fascist, racist, or otherwise right-wing extremists”

https://www.csis.org/analysis/who-are-antifa-and-are-they-threat Digital Herodotus (talk) 16:49, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

Here’s another “Most antifa adherents today come from the anarchist movement or from the far left” -ADL https://www.adl.org/resources/backgrounder/who-are-antifa

I can find some more references to antifa being far left if you guys would like. Digital Herodotus (talk) 21:33, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

When the ADL wrote “today” it was 2017. See their glossary definition [https://extremismterms.adl.org/glossary/antifa?_gl=1*1aay3dw*_ga*MzY3MzM2NjE0LjE2NzQ0MjMzNDA.*_ga_S9QB0F2PB5*MTY3NDQyMzM0MC4xLjEuMTY3NDQyMzM1MC4wLjAuMA..] “ A decentralized, leaderless movement composed of loose collections of groups, networks and individuals who are vigorously opposed to fascism, and focused on countering right-wing extremists both online and on the ground. While some antifa adherents have engaged in violence or vandalism at rallies and events, this is not the norm, despite disinformation campaigns that suggest otherwise..” Doug Weller talk 21:39, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

Ok well I have posted two sources from the ADL and CSIS both explicitly referring to antifa as far left. Do you find these sources unacceptable and if so why? You aren’t really giving a good reason for not including this information into the article. Digital Herodotus (talk) 21:41, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

“Short for "anti-fascists," antifa is not a single organization but rather an umbrella term for far-left-leaning movements that confront or resist neo-Nazis and white supremacists at demonstrations.”-PBS https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/what-is-antifa-a-look-at-the-movement-trump-is-blaming-for-violence-at-protests

Digital Herodotus (talk) 21:53, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

What’s wrong with the second paragraph? Are you really arguing that everyone who takes part in Antifa demonstrations is far left?

Goodnight. Doug Weller talk 22:02, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

“ Antifa is short for anti-fascists. The term is used to define a broad group of people whose political beliefs lean toward the left -- often the far left -- but do not conform with the Democratic Party platform.”-CNN

https://www.cnn.com/2017/08/14/us/what-is-antifa-trnd/index.html Digital Herodotus (talk) 22:10, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

Just to recap, CNN, PBS, the ADL, Center for Strategic and International Studies, and the Counter Extremism Project have all referred to antifa as “far left” in all the sources I provided. Does anyone have any real reason as to why the article shouldn’t be edited to read something along the lines of “Antifa is a left to far left anti-fascist and anti-racist political movement in the United States.”

I don’t see how this is at all an unfair characterization. Digital Herodotus (talk) 22:22, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

One more, here is an article by Michael Kenney, a professor at the University of Pittsburgh, and Colin Clarke, an extremism researcher at the Soufan Center, a nonpartisan research group. This is often referenced by other news organization in their reports on antifa.

This is how they describe the ideology behind the antifa movement “ Despite the small size of the Antifa movement, its members do not follow a single ideology. Anti-fascists express political beliefs commonly associated with the far-left end of the political spectrum. Such beliefs include different varieties of anarchism, communism, and socialism.”

http://warontherocks.com/2020/06/what-antifa-is-what-it-isnt-and-why-it-matters/

Digital Herodotus (talk) 22:38, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

How do you justify using an old statement by the ADL instead of its definition in their current glossary? Doug Weller talk 09:41, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

To help cover some of what you're discussing here, I want to be sure to point out the FAQ at the top of the talk page, but also here where Q1 covers previous conversations about this very issue, just in case you have not had the chance to review it before. I hope it helps! King keudo (talk) 12:20, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

ADL referring to the group as far left in one article in a detailed article to describe antifa and then not using it in a brief description does not invalidate the the use of it. This is a very poor excuse, also, what about all the other sources, do you need me to find more? Again, does anyone have any real reason why this shouldn’t be included in the article? Digital Herodotus (talk) 12:55, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

Are you saying the previous objections aren't "real reasons"? Because so far, your suggestions have not been convincing to anyone else reading this page. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 13:37, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

I was asked for a source that referred to antifa as far left, I provided multiple ones, and I haven’t heard any reason as to why those sources aren’t acceptable. Wikipedias isn’t governed by the personal views of editors, but a set of rules and practices and I was asking if there were any of those that these sources don’t gel with. Digital Herodotus (talk) 14:02, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

I proposed describing antifa as “left to far left”, a more than fair concession, and was asked by King keudo to provide some sources that described antifa as far left. I provided multiple ones from CNN, PBS, the ADL ect. all describing antifa as far left. Now I’m asking, is there any violation against wikipedias terms and rules of editing that this would violate? Not the personal views and opinions of certain editors. Digital Herodotus (talk) 14:10, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

You've been given reasons why those sources aren't acceptable. The fact you reject those reasons does not mean those reasons weren't given.

The key violation of the rules would be WP:RSCONTEXT. Each case you've provided uses the term "far-left" in a throwaway manner or in a broad "left to far-left" all-inclusive manner, which precludes simply declaring all of antifa "far-left." It does not provide enough context to declare "antifa is far-left" as a blanket statement.

Your original argument was: Considering antifa is a broad group which does include far-left memebers including communist and anarchist who fly communist, soviet, Maoist ect flags and symbols, I don’t think it’s at all far fetched to at the very least label them “far-left”

In other words, you are seeking to label the entire movement as "far-left," while the cites you've provided either point out that the far-left is a subset of the movement, or outdated sources that have been later corrected (ie. the ADL source).

Finally, Wikipedia operates on consensus, ie. the personal views and opinions of certain editors. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 14:58, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

I haven’t been given reason, one person said that the ADL source doesn’t count because they pointed to another article by the ADL that didn’t use that particular wording, this does not invalidate the use by the ADL in anyway. Even if you don’t want to use the ADL source at all, there is still the CNN, PBS, CSIS, as well as the article from “War on the Rocks” I posted by two experts on the matter who are regularly quoted in reports on antifa.

Again, I am calling for antifa to be referred to as “left to far left” which I have stated multiple times now.

Also, consensus is not a simple count of votes, it’s a means to figure out if a particular edit violates rules of Wikipedia.

“In determining consensus, consider the quality of the arguments, the history of how they came about, the objections of those who disagree, and existing policies and guidelines. The quality of an argument is more important than whether it represents a minority or a majority view. The arguments "I just don't like it" and "I just like it" usually carry no weight whatsoever.

Limit article talk page discussions to discussion of sources, article focus, and policy.” - wikipedia:TALKDONTREVERT

And

“Consensus is ascertained by the quality of the arguments given on the various sides of an issue, as viewed through the lens of Wikipedia policy.”-wikipedia:DETCON

Once again, is there a particular rule or standard of Wikipedia editing that my suggested change would violate? Personal opinions of editors are not valid reasons, I’m checking to make sure I am not overlooking a certain rule. Digital Herodotus (talk) 16:12, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

I haven’t been given reason

That is objectively false. You've been presented numerous reasons, but you reject them. That and Wikilawyering isn't going to get you any results. You're trying to lecture someone who has been editing since 2006 on how Wikipedia's consensus model works. I suggest reconsidering that tactic. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 16:26, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

Maybe I have missed the specific reason you have given me for why my sources are not acceptable for describing antifa as “left to far left” could you please repeat them? You being an editor here is also not a real argument or reason here either. Digital Herodotus (talk) 16:41, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

I would also like to point out that you already admitted that the far left was a subset of antifa, once again, why would you be opposed to labeling antifa as “left to far left”? Digital Herodotus (talk) 16:44, 23 January 2023 (UTC)