Talk:Antifa (United States)

Misrepresentation of a cited source

The line "Historian Mark Bray, who has studied the antifa movement[...]" presents Mark Bray as some sort of neutral historian. Visiting his Wikipedia page clearly shows that this isn't the case, as the book is essentially a guide on how to be antifascist. Something like "Mark Bray, a historian and proponent of antifascism[...]" or something along those lines, as currently it hides his political bias. 97.121.153.33 (talk) 22:58, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

Are you claiming that being pro-fascist is what we seek? I tend to trust historians who are against fascism. Heck, I trust all people who oppose fascism better than those who support it. --Jayron32 18:29, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

No. I'm just saying that the wording currently makes it seem like he's neutral. He's not neutral. If you want a politicized article then by all means, have it. Perustaja (talk) 05:35, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

What is your evidence that Bray is not neutral? --Jayron32 12:57, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

Of course there is no intent to be pro-fascist, just as there is no intent to be anti-fascist (which this article definitely falls towards currently). The article should be neutral, while your initial reply very clearly shows you want it to be non-neutral. Surprising coming from an admin.

Go to his website, read his quotes, but to be honest there's no point further speaking to you. We have different goals and you want the article to be self-serving. I'm glad the rest of this website is largely not like this article. Perustaja (talk) 23:08, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

The neutral position is that "Fascism is bad". --Jayron32 13:37, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

Does whether he is neutral matter? Whether he's reliable and noteworthy is what's important, and whether we report it neutrally. BobFromBrockley (talk) 17:15, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

Yes, because what he is saying in this article is not entirely objective. If he was presenting empirical, statistical data then it would not matter. However, this article is full of quotes of him when he is a self-described anti-fascist. It's very clear he wants to put them in a good light as opposed to presenting a more balanced view of them, because he is one. It's very easy to differentiate between which quotes from him are objective and which are him excusing hateful conduct, which tarnishes the article.

e.g. "Dartmouth College historian Mark Bray, author of Antifa: The Anti-Fascist Handbook, credits Anti-Racist Action (ARA) as the precursor of modern antifa groups in the United States." Very easy and objective. This needs no form of disclaimer.

However, as examples

"Historian Mark Bray, who has studied the antifa movement, stated that "[g]iven the historical and current threat that white supremacist and fascist groups pose, it's clear to me that organized, collective self-defense is not only a legitimate response, but lamentably an all-too-necessary response to this threat on too many occasions." He has not merely studied the movement. He is a part of it and is self-described as such on his website. Why is someone who is very clearly having their opinion expressed here as a part of public reaction also being quoted for objective information? The conflict of interest is pretty obvious.

"According to Bray, while "confident that some members of antifa groups have participated in a variety of forms of resistance" during the protests, it is "impossible to ascertain the exact number of people who belong to antifa groups."" Note the language of "resistance" instead of illegal, violent, hateful, etc.

There are more but I won't make this any longer. In quotes like the above 2, it is very obvious that his language is non-neutral and he is in favor of the movement. As such, his quotes should have a disclaimer stating that he is at the very least adjacent to the group and in favor of its tactics. For instance, should we take quotations from a fascist author that are very clearly subjective, add them to a neo-fascist group, and then present him as a neutral historian? Honestly, most of his quotes belong under public opinion with disclaimers, because what he has written has merit, but it is clearly subjective, opinionated, and it skews the message and tone of the article away from "what is antifa?" to "here is how antifa really isn't that bad, in fact for each bad thing they've done hear what Bray has to say to excuse it" which I have never seen on another article on this site. Perustaja (talk) 23:04, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

It is also very telling that my initial suggestion, which was very reasonable given the quotations, was met with "do you want us to make it pro-fascist?". Which really tells how rotten to the core the handling of this article is to be honest. No real discussion of objectivity, just immediate reaction.

BobFromBrockley actually started a serious discussion on it. Perustaja (talk) 23:13, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

Starting a "serious discussion" on this smacks of false equivalence. The 'Neutral' in WP:NPOV doesn't mean we presume that both sides must be treated equally, nor that we should insult readers intelligence by over-stating obvious points. An academic who opposes fascism doesn't have a "conflict of interest" just as a doctor who opposes cancer doesn't have a 'conflict of interest' when debunking smoking lobbyists. It is not "reasonable" to subtly undermine the legitimacy of a source in the way you've proposed, and neither is it impartial just because it is presented as such. Grayfell (talk) 23:39, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

Per Grayfell, these kind of sealioning-type arguments are growing wearisome. Fascism is a harmful philosophy. The neutral position is that it is bad for humanity. "I just want the article to be neutral" is not what is being argued here. What the OP is doing here is a form of denialism, claiming that fascism is some harmless thing, and that people who oppose it are somehow under suspicion because they do so. To the contrary, I would hold anyone under suspicion who held any position that didn't see fascism as a harmful philosophy. --Jayron32 13:41, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

CSIS's recent report links antifa with "far-left" and violence

Bad title I know. I would say this scared me since CSIS previously stated that antifa made less violent attack. Is it worth changing some tone or wording according to it? ときさき くるみ ^{not because they are easy, but because they are hard} 00:28, 16 January 2023 (UTC)

In context, the source groups antifa with all other far left actors. Per the source, far left actors were more likely to use violence (by a broad definition that includes property damage) in 2021 than in previous years. Predictably, these acts were much less likely to be fatal, or to use lethal weapons (which means guns), than those from the far-right. Per the source, only one far-left attack in 2021 was fatal, and that attack was tied to Black Nationalist groups, and since anarchism and nationalism are opposed, Black Nationalist groups are not typically grouped with antifa by analysts. (The source is about 2021, but the first two examples of violence are from 2022 and 2020.) The authors' use of a single incident to try and plot a trend strikes me as very sloppy.

Strangely, the source treats "ethnonationalist" groups as separate from both far-left and far right, while also specifically describing white nationalism as far-right. But they apparently don't include the Black Nationalist attack as part of this ethnonationalist group. Why? Instead they treat it as far-left.

Despite issues like this, the source could be useful, but it should not be over-stated to support information it doesn't directly support. Grayfell (talk) 02:52, 16 January 2023 (UTC)

It's not an ideal source because, while it talks about anti-fascist groups generally and Rose City Antifa specifically, neither of these is precisely the subject of this article. Though they're probably talking about the same groups and individuals we talk about in this article, the language used leaves open the possibility they're discussing anti-fascist groups that wouldn't be considered antifa groups. – Arms & Hearts (talk) 10:40, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

Considering antifa is a broad group which does include far-left memebers including communist and anarchist who fly communist, soviet, Maoist ect flags and symbols, I don’t think it’s at all far fetched to at the very least label them “far-left” Digital Herodotus (talk) 22:27, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

"Includes" but doesn't "consist of". It also includes people who are not far-left. So "includes" is by no means a valid reason to call the group far-left. Doug Weller talk 11:48, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

The description should read something along the lines of “leftist to far leftist” then because from the description, it makes it sound like this is some left of center protest group and not a group of communist and anarchist who riot and have been involved with shooting incidents, assault, terrorism charges and other serious crimes and anti social behavior. Digital Herodotus (talk) 14:05, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

What sources do you have that can be used to label the antifa movement as "leftist to far leftist"? We will want to be able to attribute that label, right? King keudo (talk) 22:31, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

@Digital Herodotus when were they charged with terrorism? What was the outcome? Doug Weller talk 10:27, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

Would you not consider communism and anarchism far left? Digital Herodotus (talk) 07:04, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

Also, here is an article from the Counter Exfremist Project on Far-Left violence which specifically named antifa along with other factions, groups like Red Neck Revolt and the John Brown Gun Club

https://www.counterextremism.com/content/far-left-extremist-groups-united-states Digital Herodotus (talk) 07:08, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

The article you provided doesn't call antifa "leftist to far left" or designate them as terrorists. Also, anarchism, communism, whatever the case may be, what we "consider" these ideologies to be doesn't matter, what matters is what the reliable sources say about antifa, and what can be verified. The article you provided doesn't call antifa "leftist to far left". The article uses the term far-left as a broad term to encompass protestors and general groups that embrace a left-wing ideological stance. It also doesn't label antifa as terrorists, and does state "There are multiple groups in the United States that affiliate with the Antifa ideology, but they have no formal organizational relationship, formal leadership structure, or shared tactical approach" which belies the idea that the article is making any of those claims about the antifa movement. King keudo (talk) 13:02, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

“The president’s desire to label Antifa a terrorist organization highlighted the problematic nature of modern far-left groups in the United States, which are largely less organized than their predecessors”

I also never called for Antifa to be called terrorist now, just that they be called far leftist for their inclusion of communist and anarchist. Digital Herodotus (talk) 14:50, 22 January 2023 (UTC)